From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.science.mathematics.categories/4329 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Streicher Newsgroups: gmane.science.mathematics.categories Subject: trying to answer some of Paul's questions Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:17:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1241019875 12784 80.91.229.2 (29 Apr 2009 15:44:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:44:35 +0000 (UTC) To: categories@mta.ca Original-X-From: rrosebru@mta.ca Mon Mar 17 18:15:34 2008 -0300 Return-path: Envelope-to: categories-list@mta.ca Delivery-date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:15:34 -0300 Original-Received: from Majordom by mailserv.mta.ca with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1JbMed-0005p9-TM for categories-list@mta.ca; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:14:00 -0300 Original-Sender: cat-dist@mta.ca Precedence: bulk X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 Original-Lines: 96 Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.mathematics.categories:4329 Archived-At: Dear Paul, I am trying to answer at least some of your questions. > what he might mean categorically by saying that > an external family of objects is a function I -> Ob(EE) where I is a > set unless his Ob(EE) is a "class" in either the sense of algebraic set > theory (ie an object in another category besides EE) or some similar > approach. You can't say this "categorically" as far as I can see. I am working informally on the meta-level and there both I and Ob(EE) are ome sets and it is clear what is a function from I to Set. If necessary I can also reveil the strength of my meta-level reasoning: ZFC plus the axiom that every set appears as member of some Grothendieck universe. > AST is an intellectually valid point of view on which much good > category theory has been done in the past few years. However, > Mike Shulman and I would both like to know how one might formulate > replacement WITHOUT classes. Well, for the set theorist it's impossible anyway since he needs at least the class V of all sets which, of course, is carefully hidden as the (interpretation of the) single sort over which the variables of the language of set theory range. Well, and by using first order definable properties one has a lot of further classes not given official status but which are there as interpretations of those formulas. That's precisely the starting point of AST postulating a Heyting category EE and a "universe" V in it which has enough properties for V being a model of IZF. (Well, AST in its orginal form has also the ambition to construct this class V as a quotient of a W-type.) Only when reading your most recent mail it became clear to me that your intentions are quite different from ETCS. McLarty's replacement axiom does speak about external families which are syntactically definable in the language of ETCS whereas you - as I understand it - want to stick to internal families (aka display maps). The intention of my mail from Saturday was to argue that the external notion of family is (at least) problematic in a non-wellpointed context. Using universes in toposes (as in my paper with this title) one can formulate everything without using the external families and so one can in AST. > As I said before, they claim that replacement is necessary > to construct the ordinal omega+omega, whilst this order structure can > be constructed up to isomorphism very easily without it. Of course, one can construct even larger prim.rec. orders but one cannot prove their implementation as von Neumann ordinals. And that's what they want. > Thomas Streicher uses indexed/fibred category theory to link internal > and external notions. I don't see, however, how he manages to give > the SPECIFICATION that a display map X-->N is the sequence of iterates > of the powerset on N. The formulation that I gave at the end of my > previous posting and in Remark 9.6.16 in my book does do this. But it's very easy to express this specification in the internal language of a topos namely as \forall n:N \exists i : X_{n+1} -> P(X_n) Iso(i) > the Artin gluing / Freyd cover / scone (Sierpinski cone) / logical > relations construction, which can be used to prove CONSISTENCY > of various theories, once again by comparing the term model with > the ambient universe. in PTJ's Elephant 3.6.3 (f) you find a description of sconing in a fibred setting, i.e. over an arbitrary base: if p : EE -> SS is a geom. morph. then sc_SS(EE) is just the glueing of p_* : EE -> SS that's my answer to the question of how I would define sconing relative to an arbitrary base this certainly doesn't answer you question above; I can just give an honest answer: when using glueing I always used full power on the meta level including the common identification of families of sets indexed by I and maps to I asa far as AST is concerned there is no proof yet that models of AST are stable under soning; a first attempt you can find in a paper by M. Warren Michael A. Warren. Coalgebras in a category of classes. Annals of Pure and Applied Logic, 146(1):60-71, 2007. That's what Benno van den Berg just told me when asking him about it. Sconing for the free topos with nno is of course not the issue here. But to show that models of AST are stable under sconing is subtle. The key point is that you seem to take for Set a big enough category containg a nontrivial notion of small map. Otherwise there are problems to define an object of small objects. Thomas