Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Michael Barr <barr@math.mcgill.ca>]

I am NOT about to change a word that has apparently existed for over 50
years just because it is not particularly meaningful.  Does "ring", which
originally referred to Z/nZ, still have any connection with the notion?
How about "field" or as the French and Germans call them "body" have any
connection with fields.  The worst thing is to create a fork in the
language.  I have my own idea on what a better word would be but I'll be
damned if I state it in a public forum.  Anyway, I gather that
Grothendieck's definition is hardly used today.

It is interesting that the less important question (and ultimately
unimportant) question has flooded the list, while the serious one (what
was Grothendieck's supposed to be) has been ignored.  I have no
suggestion, save my own, for what definition was actually intended.

Michael

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, edubuc@dm.uba.ar wrote:

>
>
> I agree with Vaughan.
>
> Further, I have the feeling that "abutment" is not the appropriate way of
> rendering into mathematical english the meaning of the word
> "aboutissement" as it was used by Grothendieck.
>
> I repeat, we should analyse the whole french sentence to come up with a
> good translation.
>
> Is it not possible that somebody (not very versant in either french or
> english) had first the need to translate Grothendieck's "aboutissement",
> and unlike Michael Barr who asked advise, just  came up  with "abutment"
> (out of some dictionary).
>
> and then, other people  (also not very good at either french or english)
> in the same area just keep copying him  and each other?
>
> and generated the whole cascade coming out of google . . .
>
> who is to blame for the first use of "abutment" for Grothendieck's
> "aboutissement" in mathematical english  ?   ja !!!
>
> are we all going to follow ?
>
> I will be the first to use "abutment" if the word has a long tradition,
> and some prestigious mathematicians have used it.
>
> I finish with a question:  Is it the case here ?
>
> Eduardo Dubuc
>
>> I'm with Michel on this one:
>>
>> > Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement",
>> > with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement".  The latter is
>> > closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade
>> > of "fatality" in it).
>> >
>> > The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical
>> > idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted
>> > to mention the difference.
>>
>> Not a single abutment in any of the following YouTube videos posted by
>> their proud aboutisseurs.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aboutissement&search_type=
>>
>> Evidently G needed a word with the sense of "limit" or "completion" that
>> didn't overload terms that already had technical meanings in that
>> context while itself having a technical ring to it, which
>> "aboutissement" seems to do nicely in French.  Something like "terminus"
>> might serve this purpose in English.
>>
>> An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together,
>> often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth,
>> and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose.
>>
>> Vaughan
>>
>>
>
>
>
>