Re: abutment = aboutement?

["Eduardo J. Dubuc" <edubuc@dm.uba.ar>]

Fred Linton has in this mail enlighten us all about the meaning in french of
the words  "aboutissement" and "aboutement". Quite different meanings.

(*) It seems that "aboutir" means more or less "to arrive" or "to finish"
"come to the end"  etc,

while "abuter" means 'to join end to end',

thus ""abuter" a path" would mean "to make it into a loop" while ""aboutir" a
path" would mean "to arrive to the end point"

if "abutment" translates "aboutement",
                           it certaily does not translate "aboutissement"

Having in mind (*) above, somebody knowledgeable in both mathematics (in
particular spectral sequences) and english should be able to come up with a
correct english version of what Grothendieck meant by "aboutissement", which
was certainly not  "abutment".


Fred E.J. Linton wrote:
> Greetings.
>
> Way back on Monday, in an email direct to Mike, I had asked,
>
>> Think 'abut' for aboutir or 'abutment' for aboutissement
>> are unusable false cognates?
>
> The more I read the comments here, and the more I consult
> dictionaries and phrase books, the more I come to think
> the answer, alas, is YES.
>
> Without, for the moment, examining the roles of "aboutir"
> and "aboutissement" in the setting of spectral sequences,
> let me expound for a bit on plain French philology.
>
> French "bout" is a masculine noun whose meaning tends to be
> along the lines of 'end', 'tip', 'extremity', as in the
> idiomatic expressions:
>
> "aux bouts du monde" = 'to the ends of the earth' ;
> "d'un bout à l'autre" = 'from beginning to end'
>  (literally: 'from one end to the other') ;
> "sur le bout des doigts" = 'at [one's] finger tips' ;
> "au bout d'une heure" = 'after (lit.: at the end of) an hour' ;
> "le bout de la langue" = 'the tip (extremity) of the tongue' ;
> "au bout de la rue" = 'at the end of the street' .
>
> Not to be confused with French "but" = 'end' in the rather different
> sense of 'goal', 'aim', 'target', 'purpose', etc.
>
> French "abouter" is a verb, derived from "bout", whose meaning is
> 'to join (or to place) end to end'; its past participle "abouté"
> thus serves as the adjective 'placed (or joined) end to end',
> whence the carpenterial nouns "about", for 'end' or 'butt-end'
> and "aboutement", 'butt-junction' or 'abutment'.
>
> The French verb "aboutir" develops 'end' rather differently: its
> meanings are rather 'to come to an end at (or with)', 'to join',
> 'to meet', 'to border upon', 'to end in', 'to tend to', as with:
>
> "N'aboutir à rien" = 'to come to nothing' ;
> "Ce champ aboutit à un marais" = 'this field borders upon a swamp' ;
> the long, winding road that may quite possibly "aboutit" in a cul-de-sac ;
> "N'aboutir à rien" = 'to come to nothing' ;
> and even "Faire aboutir un abscè" = 'to bring an abscess to a head'
>  (literally: 'to cause an abscess to come to an end') .
>
> The French noun "aboutissement", being derived from "aboutir"
> rather than from "abouter", thus differs from "aboutement" in
> signifying rather the end (or border or new state or condition)
> at or to which something may "aboutit"; or, the act of achieving
> that end, border, state, or condition. In particular, for a context
> where "aboutir" has the meaning 'to tend to', the sense of
> "aboutissement" may well be 'that which is tended to', which
> is very nearly 'limit'. This nearly suggests that "aboutir" might
> even, at times, be capable of expressing the sense 'to converge to'.
>
> That said, how does this all fit with spectral sequences?
>
> Certainly there is well-established usage involving the terms
> of a spectral sequence converging to something-or-other.
> Only in the full context of the French text around "aboutir"
> or "aboutissement", though, would I be able to hazard any guess
> whether 'convergence' or 'limit' would be the right counterparts.
> Quite possibly they are *not*.
>
> Still, I'm hesitant to withdraw my warning that 'abut' and
> 'abutment' are probably false cognates, no matter that several
> mathematical authors have chosen to use them to render these terms.
>
> Is there any hope, perhaps, of getting input from some francophone
> spectral sequence experts -- best of all, from AG himself?
>
> Thanks to Eduardo D and Vaughan P and Michel H for their misgivings,
> which encouraged me to compose the above, despite the assurances
> of Jim S that the 'abut*' usage is by now well entrenched.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -- Fred
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 07:27:05 AM EDT
> From: edubuc@dm.uba.ar
> To: "categories" <categories@mta.ca>
> Subject: Re: categories: Re: Re: abutment = aboutement?
>
>>
>> I agree with Vaughan.
>>
>> Further, I have the feeling that "abutment" is not the appropriate way of
>> rendering into mathematical english the meaning of the word
>> "aboutissement" as it was used by Grothendieck.
>>
>> I repeat, we should analyse the whole french sentence to come up with a
>> good translation.
>>
>> Is it not possible that somebody (not very versant in either french or
>> english) had first the need to translate Grothendieck's "aboutissement",
>> and unlike Michael Barr who asked advise, just  came up  with "abutment"
>> (out of some dictionary).
>>
>> and then, other people  (also not very good at either french or english)
>> in the same area just keep copying him  and each other?
>>
>> and generated the whole cascade coming out of google . . .
>>
>> who is to blame for the first use of "abutment" for Grothendieck's
>> "aboutissement" in mathematical english  ?   ja !!!
>>
>> are we all going to follow ?
>>
>>  I will be the first to use "abutment" if the word has a long tradition,
>> and some prestigious mathematicians have used it.
>>
>> I finish with a question:  Is it the case here ?
>>
>> Eduardo Dubuc
>>
>>> I'm with Michel on this one:
>>>
>>>  > Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement",
>>>  > with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement".  The latter is
>>>  > closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade
>>>  > of "fatality" in it).
>>>  >
>>>  > The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical
>>>  > idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted
>>>  > to mention the difference.
>>>
>>> Not a single abutment in any of the following YouTube videos posted by
>>> their proud aboutisseurs.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aboutissement&search_type=
>>>
>>> Evidently G needed a word with the sense of "limit" or "completion" that
>>> didn't overload terms that already had technical meanings in that
>>> context while itself having a technical ring to it, which
>>> "aboutissement" seems to do nicely in French.  Something like "terminus"
>>> might serve this purpose in English.
>>>
>>> An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together,
>>> often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth,
>>> and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose.
>>>
>>> Vaughan
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>