From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.science.mathematics.categories/4507 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Eduardo J. Dubuc" Newsgroups: gmane.science.mathematics.categories Subject: Re: abutment = aboutement? Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 03:15:13 -0300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1241019989 13621 80.91.229.2 (29 Apr 2009 15:46:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:46:29 +0000 (UTC) To: Categories list Original-X-From: rrosebru@mta.ca Thu Aug 21 09:48:27 2008 -0300 Return-path: Envelope-to: categories-list@mta.ca Delivery-date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:48:27 -0300 Original-Received: from Majordom by mailserv.mta.ca with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1KW9aN-0000HV-Dw for categories-list@mta.ca; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:48:19 -0300 Original-Sender: cat-dist@mta.ca Precedence: bulk X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 Original-Lines: 177 Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.mathematics.categories:4507 Archived-At: Fred Linton has in this mail enlighten us all about the meaning in french of the words "aboutissement" and "aboutement". Quite different meanings. (*) It seems that "aboutir" means more or less "to arrive" or "to finish" "come to the end" etc, while "abuter" means 'to join end to end', thus ""abuter" a path" would mean "to make it into a loop" while ""aboutir" a path" would mean "to arrive to the end point" if "abutment" translates "aboutement", it certaily does not translate "aboutissement" Having in mind (*) above, somebody knowledgeable in both mathematics (in particular spectral sequences) and english should be able to come up with a correct english version of what Grothendieck meant by "aboutissement", which was certainly not "abutment". Fred E.J. Linton wrote: > Greetings. > > Way back on Monday, in an email direct to Mike, I had asked, > >> Think 'abut' for aboutir or 'abutment' for aboutissement >> are unusable false cognates? > > The more I read the comments here, and the more I consult > dictionaries and phrase books, the more I come to think > the answer, alas, is YES. > > Without, for the moment, examining the roles of "aboutir" > and "aboutissement" in the setting of spectral sequences, > let me expound for a bit on plain French philology. > > French "bout" is a masculine noun whose meaning tends to be > along the lines of 'end', 'tip', 'extremity', as in the > idiomatic expressions: > > "aux bouts du monde" = 'to the ends of the earth' ; > "d'un bout à l'autre" = 'from beginning to end' > (literally: 'from one end to the other') ; > "sur le bout des doigts" = 'at [one's] finger tips' ; > "au bout d'une heure" = 'after (lit.: at the end of) an hour' ; > "le bout de la langue" = 'the tip (extremity) of the tongue' ; > "au bout de la rue" = 'at the end of the street' . > > Not to be confused with French "but" = 'end' in the rather different > sense of 'goal', 'aim', 'target', 'purpose', etc. > > French "abouter" is a verb, derived from "bout", whose meaning is > 'to join (or to place) end to end'; its past participle "abouté" > thus serves as the adjective 'placed (or joined) end to end', > whence the carpenterial nouns "about", for 'end' or 'butt-end' > and "aboutement", 'butt-junction' or 'abutment'. > > The French verb "aboutir" develops 'end' rather differently: its > meanings are rather 'to come to an end at (or with)', 'to join', > 'to meet', 'to border upon', 'to end in', 'to tend to', as with: > > "N'aboutir à rien" = 'to come to nothing' ; > "Ce champ aboutit à un marais" = 'this field borders upon a swamp' ; > the long, winding road that may quite possibly "aboutit" in a cul-de-sac ; > "N'aboutir à rien" = 'to come to nothing' ; > and even "Faire aboutir un abscè" = 'to bring an abscess to a head' > (literally: 'to cause an abscess to come to an end') . > > The French noun "aboutissement", being derived from "aboutir" > rather than from "abouter", thus differs from "aboutement" in > signifying rather the end (or border or new state or condition) > at or to which something may "aboutit"; or, the act of achieving > that end, border, state, or condition. In particular, for a context > where "aboutir" has the meaning 'to tend to', the sense of > "aboutissement" may well be 'that which is tended to', which > is very nearly 'limit'. This nearly suggests that "aboutir" might > even, at times, be capable of expressing the sense 'to converge to'. > > That said, how does this all fit with spectral sequences? > > Certainly there is well-established usage involving the terms > of a spectral sequence converging to something-or-other. > Only in the full context of the French text around "aboutir" > or "aboutissement", though, would I be able to hazard any guess > whether 'convergence' or 'limit' would be the right counterparts. > Quite possibly they are *not*. > > Still, I'm hesitant to withdraw my warning that 'abut' and > 'abutment' are probably false cognates, no matter that several > mathematical authors have chosen to use them to render these terms. > > Is there any hope, perhaps, of getting input from some francophone > spectral sequence experts -- best of all, from AG himself? > > Thanks to Eduardo D and Vaughan P and Michel H for their misgivings, > which encouraged me to compose the above, despite the assurances > of Jim S that the 'abut*' usage is by now well entrenched. > > Cheers, > > -- Fred > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 07:27:05 AM EDT > From: edubuc@dm.uba.ar > To: "categories" > Subject: Re: categories: Re: Re: abutment = aboutement? > >> >> I agree with Vaughan. >> >> Further, I have the feeling that "abutment" is not the appropriate way of >> rendering into mathematical english the meaning of the word >> "aboutissement" as it was used by Grothendieck. >> >> I repeat, we should analyse the whole french sentence to come up with a >> good translation. >> >> Is it not possible that somebody (not very versant in either french or >> english) had first the need to translate Grothendieck's "aboutissement", >> and unlike Michael Barr who asked advise, just came up with "abutment" >> (out of some dictionary). >> >> and then, other people (also not very good at either french or english) >> in the same area just keep copying him and each other? >> >> and generated the whole cascade coming out of google . . . >> >> who is to blame for the first use of "abutment" for Grothendieck's >> "aboutissement" in mathematical english ? ja !!! >> >> are we all going to follow ? >> >> I will be the first to use "abutment" if the word has a long tradition, >> and some prestigious mathematicians have used it. >> >> I finish with a question: Is it the case here ? >> >> Eduardo Dubuc >> >>> I'm with Michel on this one: >>> >>> > Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement", >>> > with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement". The latter is >>> > closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade >>> > of "fatality" in it). >>> > >>> > The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical >>> > idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted >>> > to mention the difference. >>> >>> Not a single abutment in any of the following YouTube videos posted by >>> their proud aboutisseurs. >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aboutissement&search_type= >>> >>> Evidently G needed a word with the sense of "limit" or "completion" that >>> didn't overload terms that already had technical meanings in that >>> context while itself having a technical ring to it, which >>> "aboutissement" seems to do nicely in French. Something like "terminus" >>> might serve this purpose in English. >>> >>> An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together, >>> often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth, >>> and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose. >>> >>> Vaughan >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > >