Re: abutment = aboutement?

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Eduardo J. Dubuc]

[ Note from moderator: It is time to close this thread. Further discussion
of the linguistic part of Michael's query should happen away from the
list. Thanks to contributors. ]


Michael Barr wrote:
> I am NOT about to change a word that has apparently existed for over 50
> years just because it is not particularly meaningful.

"aboutissement" existed for over 50 years of course, but the translation
"abutment" is, (at least in the references given in these postings, including
the translation of the grothendieck-serre correspondence) much more recent, it
seem that all of its occurrences are from the second millennium, or very close.

On the other hand, we have learned in these postings that in the 1980's and
before, the word "limit" (and not "abutment') was used for what a spectral
sequence converges to. An authority as Peter Hilton used "limit".

There are a lot of well established words in mathematics which are not
particularly meaningful, but the difference with  "abutment" is precisely that
they are well established.

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[wlawvere]

 
There are common  words, rarely used in a technical sense,
that however may be useful as explanatory marginal
alternatives of foreign words. The "ab...ment d.. " being
discussed seems to be explained by  "goal", as in
       f is the goal of F
where F is the Fourer series of a function f (which leaves to
particular investigation the question of actual convergence).

In turn "goal" can be helpfully explained as 
             purpose
a concept that academic discussions should not forget.

Bill


On Thu 08/21/08  3:18 PM , Vaughan Pratt pratt@cs.stanford.edu sent:
> Meanwhile I count eight occurrences of "abut" and
> "abutment" in the (36kilobyte!) main Wikipedia article on spectral sequences (there are a
> dozen separate much shorter articles on particular spectral sequences,
> along with a 15 kB article on derived categories).
> 
> On the other hand the algebra and geometry articles of the 1987
> Britannica Macropaedia both prefer the term "limit" for what a
> spectralsequence converges to, in respectively Peter Hilton's contribution
> "Other aspects of homological algebra" to the algebra article,
> and thegeometry article's section on algebraic topology.
> 
> Since Wikipedia seems to be trumping Britannica these days, and no one
> here has objected to established usage in mathematics trumping
> linguistic suitability, the precise distance of "abutment" from
> theoptimal English cognate for "aboutissement" would appear to be
> academic,an epithet reflecting the outside world's perception that raising moot
> points is in our job description.
> 
> Vaughan
> 
> >> Thanks to Eduardo D and Vaughan P and Michel
> H for their misgivings,>> which encouraged me to compose the above,
> despite the assurances>> of Jim S that the 'abut*' usage is by now
> well entrenched.>>
> >> Fred
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[jim stasheff]

Thaks, Vaughan

That reraises a question I implied earlier
limit for the E_\infty term is appropriate
but that is the graded of what I dimly recall the SS
abuts to - the ungraded, e.g. H^(E) in the Serre-Leray SS

anyone confirm that?

jim

Pratt wrote:
> Meanwhile I count eight occurrences of "abut" and "abutment" in the (36
> kilobyte!) main Wikipedia article on spectral sequences (there are a
> dozen separate much shorter articles on particular spectral sequences,
> along with a 15 kB article on derived categories).
>
> On the other hand the algebra and geometry articles of the 1987
> Britannica Macropaedia both prefer the term "limit" for what a spectral
> sequence converges to, in respectively Peter Hilton's contribution
> "Other aspects of homological algebra" to the algebra article, and the
> geometry article's section on algebraic topology.
>
> Since Wikipedia seems to be trumping Britannica these days, and no one
> here has objected to established usage in mathematics trumping
> linguistic suitability, the precise distance of "abutment" from the
> optimal English cognate for "aboutissement" would appear to be academic,
> an epithet reflecting the outside world's perception that raising moot
> points is in our job description.
>
> Vaughan
>
>>> Thanks to Eduardo D and Vaughan P and Michel H for their misgivings,
>>> which encouraged me to compose the above, despite the assurances
>>> of Jim S that the 'abut*' usage is by now well entrenched.
>>>
>>> Fred
>
>

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Fred E.J. Linton]

A few gentle corrections, if I may, and a comment. 

First, a recurrent typo:

*never* "abuter" -- only "abouter".

Next, when I wrote

> French "abouter" is a verb, derived from "bout", whose meaning is
> 'to join (or to place) end to end'

I omitted what I (evidently incorrectly) thought went without saying;
better would have been to include it, so:

> 'to join (or to place) [two things] end to end'

(thus "abouter" can be used for the placement of two successive 
spans of a bridge, as in Vaughan's illustration, with the
special dedicated support where the two spans 'abut' being,
obviously, an 'abutment'; but one would not ["abouter" a path]).

And then, I omitted to mention that the verb "aboutir" is
*intransitive* -- it does *not* accept any direct object.
Thus it is linguistically impossible to ["aboutir" a path]: but
one *may* say of a path that it "aboutit" *at* a certain point,
or *in* a certain set, or ... .

[There is a reflexive cognate of "aboutir" -- "s'aboutir" -- used in
gardening terminology to mean 'to bud' or 'to be covered with buds',
but this usage surerely serves only as a red herring if one wants 
to understand "aboutir" proper.]

Finally, to make peace with Jim S and Mike B: I in no way intend
what I've written (initially just privately, first to Mike, and 
then to Eduardo) to dictate new terminology in place of established 
spectral sequence usage. And I very much appreciate Jim's having shared 
his mental 'abutting' vision for that usage. And yet, remembering the
triples/monads transition, I wonder whether a similar transition
may not yet take place as regards "aboutissement", etc.

Cheers, -- Fred

[PS: As not all mail-readers render what are known as HTML named entities 
correctly, let me just add that, where a reader may see an 'agrave' between
an ampersand and a semicolon, I had intended an "a" with 'accent grave';
my similarly placed 'eacute' was meant to show as "e" with 'acute accent'.
Apologies to all those whose mail-readers garble these. -- Fred]

--- 

------ Original Message ------
Received: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:56:30 AM EDT
From: "Eduardo J. Dubuc" <edubuc@dm.uba.ar>
To: Categories list <categories@mta.ca>
Subject: categories: Re: abutment = aboutement?

> Fred Linton has in this mail enlighten us all about the meaning in french
of
> the words  "aboutissement" and "aboutement". Quite different meanings.
> 
> (*) It seems that "aboutir" means more or less "to arrive" or "to finish"
> "come to the end"  etc,
> 
> while "abuter" means 'to join end to end',


....

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Robert L Knighten]

To add to the chatter on this topic I'll point to the bilingual
Grothendieck-Serre Correspondence (Pierre Colmez, Jean-Pierre Serre, eds.,
Catriona Maclean, tranlater.  AMS/SMF, 2004).  The first appearance of
"abutment" of a spectral sequence appears on p. 21 as the translation of
Serre's "au bout" (quotation marks in the text.)  On p. 26 Grothendieck uses
"l'aboutissement" (in quotation marks) which is also translated as
"abutment".  Aboutissement and the translation abutment, without quotation
marks, then appear on occasion throughout the remainder of the text.

-- Bob

-- 
Robert L. Knighten
RLK@knighten.org

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Vaughan Pratt]

Meanwhile I count eight occurrences of "abut" and "abutment" in the (36
kilobyte!) main Wikipedia article on spectral sequences (there are a
dozen separate much shorter articles on particular spectral sequences,
along with a 15 kB article on derived categories).

On the other hand the algebra and geometry articles of the 1987
Britannica Macropaedia both prefer the term "limit" for what a spectral
sequence converges to, in respectively Peter Hilton's contribution
"Other aspects of homological algebra" to the algebra article, and the
geometry article's section on algebraic topology.

Since Wikipedia seems to be trumping Britannica these days, and no one
here has objected to established usage in mathematics trumping
linguistic suitability, the precise distance of "abutment" from the
optimal English cognate for "aboutissement" would appear to be academic,
an epithet reflecting the outside world's perception that raising moot
points is in our job description.

Vaughan

>> Thanks to Eduardo D and Vaughan P and Michel H for their misgivings,
>> which encouraged me to compose the above, despite the assurances
>> of Jim S that the 'abut*' usage is by now well entrenched.
>>
>> Fred

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Nimish Shah]

On Wednesday 20 August 2008 2:13 pm, Michael Barr wrote:
> I am NOT about to change a word that has apparently existed for
> over 50 years just because it is not particularly meaningful.

I am going to risk putting my two cents here and perhaps being
rejected by the moderator.

One of the reasons why a word may need to be changed even if it has
existed for 50 years is to avoid confusion. For example in the
book "Categories for Software Engineering" the author talks about
the "social life" of a set being the other sets it talks to. For a
long while this puzzled me, until it dawned on me that the idea
that the author was using was that the origins of modern
Object-Orientated Programming (ie C++, Java) started with
SmallTalk. In SmallTalk, objects communicated with one another by
sending messages; and so making an analogy with familiar concepts
that programmers use "sets have a social life" because SW
objects "talk" to each other by sending messages.

Stated another way it is difficult to see how a (Mathematical)
object is the same as a (Software) object. The latter gets created
and destroyed as the object comes in and out of scope. Hence what
does one do? When stated generically, does the word object mean a
mathematical one (around 60 years old) or a software one (more
widely used)?

Nim.

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Tim Porter]

Following the webpage:
http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/aboutissement

perhaps the word outcome suggests itself.

Tim





Quoting "Eduardo J. Dubuc" <edubuc@dm.uba.ar>:

> Fred Linton has in this mail enlighten us all about the meaning in french of
> the words  "aboutissement" and "aboutement". Quite different meanings.
>
> (*) It seems that "aboutir" means more or less "to arrive" or "to finish"
> "come to the end"  etc,
>

...

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Eduardo J. Dubuc]

Fred Linton has in this mail enlighten us all about the meaning in french of
the words  "aboutissement" and "aboutement". Quite different meanings.

(*) It seems that "aboutir" means more or less "to arrive" or "to finish"
"come to the end"  etc,

while "abuter" means 'to join end to end',

thus ""abuter" a path" would mean "to make it into a loop" while ""aboutir" a
path" would mean "to arrive to the end point"

if "abutment" translates "aboutement",
                           it certaily does not translate "aboutissement"

Having in mind (*) above, somebody knowledgeable in both mathematics (in
particular spectral sequences) and english should be able to come up with a
correct english version of what Grothendieck meant by "aboutissement", which
was certainly not  "abutment".


Fred E.J. Linton wrote:
> Greetings.
>
> Way back on Monday, in an email direct to Mike, I had asked,
>
>> Think 'abut' for aboutir or 'abutment' for aboutissement
>> are unusable false cognates?
>
> The more I read the comments here, and the more I consult
> dictionaries and phrase books, the more I come to think
> the answer, alas, is YES.
>
> Without, for the moment, examining the roles of "aboutir"
> and "aboutissement" in the setting of spectral sequences,
> let me expound for a bit on plain French philology.
>
> French "bout" is a masculine noun whose meaning tends to be
> along the lines of 'end', 'tip', 'extremity', as in the
> idiomatic expressions:
>
> "aux bouts du monde" = 'to the ends of the earth' ;
> "d'un bout à l'autre" = 'from beginning to end'
>  (literally: 'from one end to the other') ;
> "sur le bout des doigts" = 'at [one's] finger tips' ;
> "au bout d'une heure" = 'after (lit.: at the end of) an hour' ;
> "le bout de la langue" = 'the tip (extremity) of the tongue' ;
> "au bout de la rue" = 'at the end of the street' .
>
> Not to be confused with French "but" = 'end' in the rather different
> sense of 'goal', 'aim', 'target', 'purpose', etc.
>
> French "abouter" is a verb, derived from "bout", whose meaning is
> 'to join (or to place) end to end'; its past participle "abouté"
> thus serves as the adjective 'placed (or joined) end to end',
> whence the carpenterial nouns "about", for 'end' or 'butt-end'
> and "aboutement", 'butt-junction' or 'abutment'.
>
> The French verb "aboutir" develops 'end' rather differently: its
> meanings are rather 'to come to an end at (or with)', 'to join',
> 'to meet', 'to border upon', 'to end in', 'to tend to', as with:
>
> "N'aboutir à rien" = 'to come to nothing' ;
> "Ce champ aboutit à un marais" = 'this field borders upon a swamp' ;
> the long, winding road that may quite possibly "aboutit" in a cul-de-sac ;
> "N'aboutir à rien" = 'to come to nothing' ;
> and even "Faire aboutir un abscè" = 'to bring an abscess to a head'
>  (literally: 'to cause an abscess to come to an end') .
>
> The French noun "aboutissement", being derived from "aboutir"
> rather than from "abouter", thus differs from "aboutement" in
> signifying rather the end (or border or new state or condition)
> at or to which something may "aboutit"; or, the act of achieving
> that end, border, state, or condition. In particular, for a context
> where "aboutir" has the meaning 'to tend to', the sense of
> "aboutissement" may well be 'that which is tended to', which
> is very nearly 'limit'. This nearly suggests that "aboutir" might
> even, at times, be capable of expressing the sense 'to converge to'.
>
> That said, how does this all fit with spectral sequences?
>
> Certainly there is well-established usage involving the terms
> of a spectral sequence converging to something-or-other.
> Only in the full context of the French text around "aboutir"
> or "aboutissement", though, would I be able to hazard any guess
> whether 'convergence' or 'limit' would be the right counterparts.
> Quite possibly they are *not*.
>
> Still, I'm hesitant to withdraw my warning that 'abut' and
> 'abutment' are probably false cognates, no matter that several
> mathematical authors have chosen to use them to render these terms.
>
> Is there any hope, perhaps, of getting input from some francophone
> spectral sequence experts -- best of all, from AG himself?
>
> Thanks to Eduardo D and Vaughan P and Michel H for their misgivings,
> which encouraged me to compose the above, despite the assurances
> of Jim S that the 'abut*' usage is by now well entrenched.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -- Fred
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 07:27:05 AM EDT
> From: edubuc@dm.uba.ar
> To: "categories" <categories@mta.ca>
> Subject: Re: categories: Re: Re: abutment = aboutement?
>
>>
>> I agree with Vaughan.
>>
>> Further, I have the feeling that "abutment" is not the appropriate way of
>> rendering into mathematical english the meaning of the word
>> "aboutissement" as it was used by Grothendieck.
>>
>> I repeat, we should analyse the whole french sentence to come up with a
>> good translation.
>>
>> Is it not possible that somebody (not very versant in either french or
>> english) had first the need to translate Grothendieck's "aboutissement",
>> and unlike Michael Barr who asked advise, just  came up  with "abutment"
>> (out of some dictionary).
>>
>> and then, other people  (also not very good at either french or english)
>> in the same area just keep copying him  and each other?
>>
>> and generated the whole cascade coming out of google . . .
>>
>> who is to blame for the first use of "abutment" for Grothendieck's
>> "aboutissement" in mathematical english  ?   ja !!!
>>
>> are we all going to follow ?
>>
>>  I will be the first to use "abutment" if the word has a long tradition,
>> and some prestigious mathematicians have used it.
>>
>> I finish with a question:  Is it the case here ?
>>
>> Eduardo Dubuc
>>
>>> I'm with Michel on this one:
>>>
>>>  > Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement",
>>>  > with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement".  The latter is
>>>  > closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade
>>>  > of "fatality" in it).
>>>  >
>>>  > The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical
>>>  > idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted
>>>  > to mention the difference.
>>>
>>> Not a single abutment in any of the following YouTube videos posted by
>>> their proud aboutisseurs.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aboutissement&search_type=
>>>
>>> Evidently G needed a word with the sense of "limit" or "completion" that
>>> didn't overload terms that already had technical meanings in that
>>> context while itself having a technical ring to it, which
>>> "aboutissement" seems to do nicely in French.  Something like "terminus"
>>> might serve this purpose in English.
>>>
>>> An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together,
>>> often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth,
>>> and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose.
>>>
>>> Vaughan
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[jim stasheff]

Vaughan Pratt wrote:
> I'm with Michel on this one:
>
> > Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement",
> > with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement".  The latter is
> > closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade
> > of "fatality" in it).
> >
> > The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical
> > idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted
> > to mention the difference.
>
> Not a single abutment in any of the following YouTube videos posted by
> their proud aboutisseurs.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aboutissement&search_type=
>
> Evidently G needed a word with the sense of "limit" or "completion" that
> didn't overload terms that already had technical meanings in that
> context while itself having a technical ring to it, which
> "aboutissement" seems to do nicely in French.  Something like "terminus"
> might serve this purpose in English.
>
> An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together,
> often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth,
> and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose.
>
> Vaughan
>
>
Mathematicians have a gift for language - not to worry about translation
consider translating `field' into
French
Russian
german
...

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[jim stasheff]

> An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together,
> often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth,
> and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose.
>
> Vaughan

I admit I don't recall abutment
but abutting has a long history in spec sequence jargon
the idea I think was that the spectral sequence runs to/
buts up against the E\infty term or is it to the object
of which E\infty is the associated graded?

sorry it's been so long...

jim


>
>
>
>

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Michael Barr]

I am NOT about to change a word that has apparently existed for over 50
years just because it is not particularly meaningful.  Does "ring", which
originally referred to Z/nZ, still have any connection with the notion?
How about "field" or as the French and Germans call them "body" have any
connection with fields.  The worst thing is to create a fork in the
language.  I have my own idea on what a better word would be but I'll be
damned if I state it in a public forum.  Anyway, I gather that
Grothendieck's definition is hardly used today.

It is interesting that the less important question (and ultimately
unimportant) question has flooded the list, while the serious one (what
was Grothendieck's supposed to be) has been ignored.  I have no
suggestion, save my own, for what definition was actually intended.

Michael

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, edubuc@dm.uba.ar wrote:

>
>
> I agree with Vaughan.
>
> Further, I have the feeling that "abutment" is not the appropriate way of
> rendering into mathematical english the meaning of the word
> "aboutissement" as it was used by Grothendieck.
>
> I repeat, we should analyse the whole french sentence to come up with a
> good translation.
>
> Is it not possible that somebody (not very versant in either french or
> english) had first the need to translate Grothendieck's "aboutissement",
> and unlike Michael Barr who asked advise, just  came up  with "abutment"
> (out of some dictionary).
>
> and then, other people  (also not very good at either french or english)
> in the same area just keep copying him  and each other?
>
> and generated the whole cascade coming out of google . . .
>
> who is to blame for the first use of "abutment" for Grothendieck's
> "aboutissement" in mathematical english  ?   ja !!!
>
> are we all going to follow ?
>
> I will be the first to use "abutment" if the word has a long tradition,
> and some prestigious mathematicians have used it.
>
> I finish with a question:  Is it the case here ?
>
> Eduardo Dubuc
>
>> I'm with Michel on this one:
>>
>> > Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement",
>> > with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement".  The latter is
>> > closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade
>> > of "fatality" in it).
>> >
>> > The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical
>> > idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted
>> > to mention the difference.
>>
>> Not a single abutment in any of the following YouTube videos posted by
>> their proud aboutisseurs.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aboutissement&search_type=
>>
>> Evidently G needed a word with the sense of "limit" or "completion" that
>> didn't overload terms that already had technical meanings in that
>> context while itself having a technical ring to it, which
>> "aboutissement" seems to do nicely in French.  Something like "terminus"
>> might serve this purpose in English.
>>
>> An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together,
>> often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth,
>> and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose.
>>
>> Vaughan
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[edubuc]

I agree with Vaughan.

Further, I have the feeling that "abutment" is not the appropriate way of
rendering into mathematical english the meaning of the word
"aboutissement" as it was used by Grothendieck.

I repeat, we should analyse the whole french sentence to come up with a
good translation.

Is it not possible that somebody (not very versant in either french or
english) had first the need to translate Grothendieck's "aboutissement",
and unlike Michael Barr who asked advise, just  came up  with "abutment"
(out of some dictionary).

and then, other people  (also not very good at either french or english)
in the same area just keep copying him  and each other?

and generated the whole cascade coming out of google . . .

who is to blame for the first use of "abutment" for Grothendieck's
"aboutissement" in mathematical english  ?   ja !!!

are we all going to follow ?

 I will be the first to use "abutment" if the word has a long tradition,
and some prestigious mathematicians have used it.

I finish with a question:  Is it the case here ?

Eduardo Dubuc

> I'm with Michel on this one:
>
>  > Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement",
>  > with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement".  The latter is
>  > closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade
>  > of "fatality" in it).
>  >
>  > The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical
>  > idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted
>  > to mention the difference.
>
> Not a single abutment in any of the following YouTube videos posted by
> their proud aboutisseurs.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aboutissement&search_type=
>
> Evidently G needed a word with the sense of "limit" or "completion" that
> didn't overload terms that already had technical meanings in that
> context while itself having a technical ring to it, which
> "aboutissement" seems to do nicely in French.  Something like "terminus"
> might serve this purpose in English.
>
> An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together,
> often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth,
> and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose.
>
> Vaughan
>
>

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[Vaughan Pratt]

I'm with Michel on this one:

 > Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement",
 > with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement".  The latter is
 > closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade
 > of "fatality" in it).
 >
 > The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical
 > idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted
 > to mention the difference.

Not a single abutment in any of the following YouTube videos posted by
their proud aboutisseurs.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aboutissement&search_type=

Evidently G needed a word with the sense of "limit" or "completion" that
didn't overload terms that already had technical meanings in that
context while itself having a technical ring to it, which
"aboutissement" seems to do nicely in French.  Something like "terminus"
might serve this purpose in English.

An abutment is an engineering construct for butting two things together,
often in the context of bridges, whether over a river or between teeth,
and seems quite unsuitable for this purpose.

Vaughan

Re: abutment = aboutement?

[mhebert]

Dear all,

> That seems to be the translation [abutment] of the word, thanks to several.

Just a remark about "abutment": it translates the French "aboutement", with a rather different meaning than "aboutissement".  The latter is closer to the "ending" (of some process; with possibly a little shade of "fatality" in it).

The two words are related, and I don't know whether the mathematical idea behind makes "abutment" good, or even better, but I just wanted to mention the difference.

Michel Hebert






Fromcat-dist@mta.ca

To"Categories list" categories@mta.ca

Cc

DateSun, 17 Aug 2008 20:08:59 -0400 (EDT)

Subjectcategories: abutment



That
> still leaves that mysterious E^{pq} ---> G^p(E^{p+q}) to correct, since I
> do not believe that it is correct as stands.
>
> Michael
>
>