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From: Vaughan Pratt <pratt@cs.stanford.edu>
To: categories list <categories@mta.ca>
Subject: Re: terminology
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 11:04:32 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <E1OGxyx-0003OJ-KP@mailserv.mta.ca> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1OGWxJ-0002pb-Cg@mailserv.mta.ca>

On 5/23/2010 8:39 AM, Colin McLarty wrote:
> It is an interesting impulse in higher category theory to avoid
> identity in favor of isomorphism on the level of objects, and to avoid
> isomorphism in favor of equivalence on the level of categories.   But
> so far as I know no one has yet articulated a way to avoid ever using
> identity of objects and identity of categories.

Is identity even definable?  I thought it was a kind of received wisdom,
like the natural numbers.  All of us seem to be working with the same
notions of = and N, but what are they, exactly?

That was only intended as a rhetorical question, btw.  We can readily
agree on some properties of = and N, which logicians of various stripes
have gone to the trouble of spelling out, and which number theorists
both analytic and algebraic have expanded on.

Moreover most of us would agree that the proposition "the prime factors
of M = 7^7^7^7 + 5^5^5^5 + 1 (7#4 + 5#4 + 1 where m#n denotes an
exponential stack of n m's) are all greater than 2 billion and there are
more than a thousand distinct such" not only makes perfect sense but is
either true or false.  However fewer might be willing to join me in
insisting that it is certainly true.

Those who question excluded middle for this proposition may have
received different wisdom about N than the rest of us, though if I'm
right then there's a constructive proof of the proposition that can be
checked on any laptop in under an hour, which should then oblige the
intuitionistic objectors to stand down.

(No, I don't currently know a single prime factor of M and I don't
believe anyone else does either.  I do however know the least prime
factors of both M + 1 and M + 958; leaving the former as an exercise,
the latter is 1,985,781,901.  M in decimal is 1755522...1375469 where
the number of omitted digits when itself written in decimal has 695,975
digits, so although M in binary wouldn't fit in the universe let alone a
laptop's random-access memory its length in binary would easily fit in
the latter.  The requisite calculations for all these observations take
only minutes on an ordinary laptop.)

Without exponentiation in the language, M would not be known to us: with
only the polynomial operations the requisite expression 7*7*...*7 +
5*5*...*5 + 1 would stretch beyond the farthest known galaxies.  This
question about M, which is a question about N, could therefore not have
arisen.  With it, the question becomes part of our understanding, or
lack thereof, of N.

The same can be said of identity.  The richer the language, the more
tools we have to probe our understanding of identity, and the clearer
our lack of complete understanding of it becomes.

Vaughan Pratt

[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]


  parent reply	other threads:[~2010-05-24 18:04 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 83+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-05-19 10:38 Re terminology: Ronnie Brown
2010-05-20  7:58 ` soloviev
2010-05-20 19:53   ` terminology Eduardo J. Dubuc
2010-05-20 22:15   ` Re terminology: Joyal, Andre
2010-05-20 11:58 ` Urs Schreiber
     [not found] ` <AANLkTikre9x4Qikw0mqOl1qZs9DDSkcBu3CXWA05OTQT@mail.gmail.com>
2010-05-21 17:00   ` Ronnie Brown
2010-05-22 19:40     ` Joyal, André
     [not found]     ` <B3C24EA955FF0C4EA14658997CD3E25E370F5827@CAHIER.gst.uqam.ca>
2010-05-22 21:43       ` terminology Ronnie Brown
     [not found]       ` <4BF84FF3.7060806@btinternet.com>
2010-05-22 22:44         ` terminology Joyal, André
2010-05-23 15:39           ` terminology Colin McLarty
2010-05-24 13:42             ` equivalence terminology Paul Taylor
2010-05-24 15:53             ` we do meet isomorphisms of categories Marco Grandis
2010-05-26 15:21               ` Toby Bartels
2010-05-27  9:29               ` Prof. Peter Johnstone
     [not found]               ` <alpine.LRH.2.00.1005271007240.11352@siskin.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
2010-05-27 10:08                 ` Marco Grandis
2010-05-30 12:05                   ` Joyal, André
2010-05-24 18:04             ` Vaughan Pratt [this message]
2010-05-26  3:08               ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-05-24 23:06             ` Equality again Joyal, André
2010-05-26  2:27               ` Patrik Eklund
2010-05-27 11:30               ` Prof. Peter Johnstone
2010-06-01  6:36                 ` Marco Grandis
2010-06-01 14:38                   ` Joyal, André
2010-05-25 14:08             ` terminology John Baez
2010-05-25 19:39               ` terminology Colin McLarty
2010-05-29 21:47                 ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-05-30 19:15                   ` terminology Thorsten Altenkirch
     [not found]                   ` <A46C7965-B4E7-42E6-AE97-6C1D930AC878@cs.nott.ac.uk>
2010-05-30 20:51                     ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-06-01  7:39                       ` terminology Thorsten Altenkirch
2010-06-01 13:33                         ` terminology Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
     [not found]                       ` <7BF50141-7775-4D3C-A4AF-D543891666B9@cs.nott.ac.uk>
2010-06-01 18:22                         ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-05-26  8:03             ` terminology Reinhard Boerger
     [not found] ` <4BF6BC2C.2000606@btinternet.com>
2010-05-21 18:48   ` Re terminology: Urs Schreiber
     [not found] ` <AANLkTilG69hcX7ZV8zrLpQ_nf1pCmyktsnuE0RyJtQYF@mail.gmail.com>
2010-05-26  8:28   ` terminology John Baez
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2017-02-11 20:42 Terminology Fred E.J. Linton
2017-02-14  8:48 ` Terminology Steve Vickers
     [not found] ` <02568D97-0A72-4CA8-8900-BDE11E890890@cs.bham.ac.uk>
2017-02-14  9:39   ` Terminology Jean Benabou
2017-02-09 22:03 Terminology Andrée Ehresmann
2017-02-08  8:03 Terminology Jean Benabou
2017-02-08 16:34 ` Terminology Jirí Adámek
2017-02-10  1:42   ` Terminology George Janelidze
2017-02-08 21:40 ` Terminology Carsten Führmann
2017-02-09 11:31 ` Terminology Thomas Streicher
     [not found] ` <20170208180636.18346065.28939.42961@rbccm.com>
2017-02-09 16:38   ` Terminology Jean Benabou
2017-02-11 15:07     ` Terminology Steve Vickers
2013-05-02  3:57 Terminology Fred E.J. Linton
2013-05-03 11:53 ` Terminology Robert Dawson
2013-05-02  3:57 Terminology Fred E.J. Linton
2013-04-30  1:20 Terminology Fred E.J. Linton
2013-04-24 17:13 Terminology Jean Bénabou
2013-04-24 23:04 ` Terminology David Roberts
2013-04-27 13:08 ` Terminology Thomas Streicher
     [not found] ` <20130427130857.GC16801@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>
2013-04-28  3:49   ` Terminology Jean Bénabou
2013-04-28 22:47     ` Terminology Olivier Gerard
     [not found] ` <557435A6-4568-4012-8C63-E031931F41FB@wanadoo.fr>
2013-04-28 14:17   ` Terminology Thomas Streicher
2013-04-29 20:05     ` Terminology Toby Bartels
2013-04-30  0:58       ` Terminology Peter May
2010-09-29  2:03 terminology Todd Trimble
2010-09-28  4:38 terminology Eduardo J. Dubuc
2010-05-27 18:31 terminology Colin McLarty
2010-05-16 12:44 terminology Peter Selinger
2010-05-13 17:17 bilax_monoidal_functors Michael Shulman
2010-05-14 14:43 ` terminology (was: bilax_monoidal_functors) Peter Selinger
2010-05-15 19:52   ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-05-08  3:27 RE : bilax monoidal functors John Baez
2010-05-10 18:16 ` bilax_monoidal_functors?= John Baez
2010-05-11  8:28   ` bilax_monoidal_functors?= Michael Batanin
2010-05-12  3:02     ` bilax_monoidal_functors?= Toby Bartels
2010-05-13 23:09       ` bilax_monoidal_functors?= Michael Batanin
2010-05-15 16:05         ` terminology Joyal, André
2007-01-27 17:06 terminology wlawvere
2007-01-26 23:30 terminology Eduardo Dubuc
2005-12-30  1:16 terminology vs27
2005-12-29 19:09 terminology Nikita Danilov
2005-12-10  3:51 Terminology jean benabou
2005-12-21 20:04 ` Terminology Eduardo Dubuc
2005-12-26 19:47   ` terminology Vaughan Pratt
2005-12-29 23:17     ` terminology Eduardo Dubuc
2006-01-04 14:59       ` terminology Eduardo Dubuc
2003-10-17 15:19 terminology Marco Grandis
2003-10-16 21:39 terminology James Stasheff
2001-04-09 11:06 Terminology Krzysztof Worytkiewicz
2000-12-14  6:17 Terminology Max Kelly
     [not found] <3a35cdd73a39f901@amyris.wanadoo.fr>
2000-12-13 11:10 ` Terminology Dr. P.T. Johnstone
2000-12-13  1:17 Terminology Steve Lack
2000-12-12  8:19 Terminology Jean Benabou
2000-01-28 12:02 terminology James Stasheff
2000-01-28  9:57 terminology Marco Grandis
2000-01-27 19:28 terminology James Stasheff
2000-01-27 21:04 ` terminology Paul Glenn

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