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From: Michael Shulman <shulman@math.uchicago.edu>
To: Steve Vickers <s.j.vickers@cs.bham.ac.uk>
Cc: John Baez <baez@math.ucr.edu>, categories <categories@mta.ca>
Subject: Re: The omega-functor omega-category
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 15:03:20 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <E1P2OMq-0002pn-Hd@mlist.mta.ca> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1P21t5-0006yW-1O@mlist.mta.ca>

I personally prefer to say that "unique choice structure" is something
"in between" property and structure.  Kelly and Lack dubbed it
"Property-like structure" in their paper with that title.  The
difference is exactly as you say: property-like structure is unique
(up to unique isomorphism) when it exists, but is not necessarily
"preserved" by all morphisms.  In terms of forgetful functors,
property-like structure corresponds to a functor which is
*pseudomonic*, i.e. faithful, and full-on-isomorphisms.  Another nice
example is that being a monoid is a "property" of a semigroup, i.e. a
semigroup can have at most one identity element, but a semigroup
homomorphism between monoids need not be a monoid homomorphism.

Mike

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Steve Vickers <s.j.vickers@cs.bham.ac.uk> wrote:
> Dear John,
>
> There are respects in which properties are not exactly equivalent to
> degenerate, "unique choice" cases of structure. It can make a difference
> whether you consider something as property or structure, and one
> situation where the difference enters is when you consider
> homomorphisms, i.e. structure-preserving functions.
>
> For example, finiteness of sets looks like a property, but it can also
> be expressed as structure. The finiteness of a set X is, as structure,
> an element T of the finite powerset of X (i.e its free semilattice) such
> that x in T for all x in X. The structure, if it exists at all, is
> unique: T is the whole of X.
>
> If f: X -> Y is a function between finite sets X and Y then for f to be
> a homomorphism of finite sets, i.e. for it to preserve finiteness as a
> structure, means that the direct image of T_X is T_Y, i.e. f is onto.
>
> This may look artificial, but in fact it is exactly what you are forced
> to do if you wish to express finiteness in a geometric theory, as when
> presenting classifying toposes. The problem is that geometric theories
> are rather restricted in what properties they can express, so a frequent
> solution is to convert properties into structure.
>
> Another example is for decidable sets, i.e. those for which equality has
> a Boolean complement - an inequality relation. (We are talking about
> non-classical logics here.) A homomorphism then has to preserve
> inequality as well as equality, and so be 1-1.
>
> This is comparable with what you say in your paper with Shulman, if you
> replace categories with classifying toposes. (After all, you use
> topological ideas in your paper, and geometric logic is well adapted to
> topology.) For the classifying toposes, the difference between
> properties and structure is that properties correspond to subtoposes. A
> subtopos inclusion is a geometric morphism that, at a first level of
> approximation that ignores deeper topology, is full and faithful on
> points. This matches your classification for forgetting at most
> properties. But the thing about the geometric theories is that they
> oblige you to work with the category of finite sets _and surjections_,
> and this is what stops the functor FinSets -> Sets from being full. It
> is only faithful and so forgets at most structure.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve Vickers.
>

[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]


  reply	other threads:[~2010-10-02 22:03 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 35+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-09-23 10:07 David Leduc
2010-09-24 15:13 ` Urs Schreiber
2010-09-25  1:40   ` Ross Street
     [not found] ` <BF755983-D6D4-469B-9206-C6B275699C3F@mq.edu.au>
2010-09-25 11:22   ` Urs Schreiber
2010-09-26  2:00     ` David Leduc
     [not found] ` <1216D94C-81A2-49A7-95B3-7543B315A54B@mq.edu.au>
2010-09-26  5:00   ` David Leduc
     [not found] ` <E1P0Oe6-0005AL-SX@mlist.mta.ca>
2010-09-28  1:11   ` David Leduc
2010-09-29  1:09     ` John Baez
2010-09-30  0:29       ` David Leduc
     [not found] ` <AANLkTi=LXzu13GU8ZmB=+-qGTQmV3S-bDp6h+dJJ1xNJ@mail.gmail.com>
2010-09-30  3:10   ` John Baez
2010-10-01 14:22     ` Steve Vickers
2010-10-02 22:03       ` Michael Shulman [this message]
2010-10-03 13:32         ` Colin McLarty
2010-10-04  7:52         ` Vaughan Pratt
2010-10-04 18:41           ` Michael Shulman
2010-10-05 15:42             ` property_vs_structure Eduardo J. Dubuc
2010-10-06 12:34               ` errata Eduardo J. Dubuc
     [not found] ` <AANLkTin3LqPLuMFD-xSEuRK9TqBUbHrRRxrdcOEykJJo@mail.gmail.com>
2010-10-03 22:11   ` The omega-functor omega-category Michael Shulman
     [not found] ` <20101007010252.EA0FDCF26@mailscan2.ncs.mcgill.ca>
2010-10-07 23:46   ` errata Marta Bunge
     [not found]   ` <SNT101-W63B3FACD04EBDB79A3E389DF6F0@phx.gbl>
2010-10-08  0:40     ` property_vs_structure Eduardo J. Dubuc
     [not found] ` <20101008004112.BE2B38572@mailscan2.ncs.mcgill.ca>
2010-10-08 19:19   ` property_vs_structure Marta Bunge
     [not found]   ` <SNT101-W2444EC2F259963200F4CEEDF500@phx.gbl>
2010-10-08 21:53     ` property_vs_structure Eduardo J. Dubuc
     [not found]     ` <20101008215343.9920DABC2@mailscan2.ncs.mcgill.ca>
     [not found]       ` <SNT101-W455AA430BC53CBFDB8DCE3DF510@phx.gbl>
2010-10-09 14:12         ` FW: property_vs_structure Marta Bunge
2010-10-09 21:07         ` property_vs_structure Eduardo J. Dubuc
2010-10-11 13:03           ` property_vs_structure George Janelidze
     [not found] ` <20101009210755.68229A98F@mailscan2.ncs.mcgill.ca>
2010-10-09 22:26   ` property_vs_structure Marta Bunge
     [not found] ` <20101011201507.3A7732E52@mailscan3.ncs.mcgill.ca>
2010-10-18 21:04   ` property_vs_structure Marta Bunge
2010-10-21  0:14     ` property_vs_structure George Janelidze
2010-10-21 17:51 ` property_vs_structure Marta Bunge
     [not found] ` <20101021002656.76CCDD13F@mailscan3.ncs.mcgill.ca>
2010-10-24 21:15   ` property_vs_structure Marta Bunge
2010-10-25 11:15     ` property_vs_structure George Janelidze
     [not found] ` <20101025111544.E773E63DD@mailscan3.ncs.mcgill.ca>
2010-10-25 14:26   ` property_vs_structure Marta Bunge
     [not found] ` <20101025012021.684BB8F88@mailscan2.ncs.mcgill.ca>
2010-10-25 19:30   ` property_vs_structure Marta Bunge
2010-10-04 21:00 The omega-functor omega-category Fred E.J. Linton
2010-10-05 14:13 ` David Leduc

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