From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.science.mathematics.categories/7149 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Fred E.J. Linton" Newsgroups: gmane.science.mathematics.categories Subject: Re: What about biproducts? Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 17:22:09 -0500 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Fred E.J. Linton" NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1326640613 12153 80.91.229.12 (15 Jan 2012 15:16:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:16:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "George Janelidze" To: Original-X-From: majordomo@mlist.mta.ca Sun Jan 15 16:16:48 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: gsmc-categories@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from smtpx.mta.ca ([138.73.1.4]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RmRp8-0003N8-2G for gsmc-categories@m.gmane.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:16:46 +0100 Original-Received: from mlist.mta.ca ([138.73.1.63]:37224) by smtpx.mta.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1RmRoJ-00036n-GN; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:15:55 -0400 Original-Received: from majordomo by mlist.mta.ca with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmRoJ-00055T-B2 for categories-list@mlist.mta.ca; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:15:55 -0400 Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.mathematics.categories:7149 Archived-At: On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 09:51:24 AM EST, George Janelidze wrote: > ... What about biproducts? ... > > ... [snip] ... > > (b) if a category admits infinite biproducts, then it is indiscrete (=3D= every > object in it is zero) ... Let me refute that by channeling the voice of Dana May Latch, the late = Alex Heller's student-of-yore, who stumped me once, decades ago, by askin= g: : What do you call a category where products and coproducts coincide? I confessed I had no idea, I had not even an example of that phenomenon, and she immediately offered the example (which I hereby share with George= ) of sup-complete sup-semilattices (with bottom element (of course)), and sup (and bottom-element) -preserving maps. If L_i are such semilattices, with bottom elements 0_i, and L is their = product, with projections p_i: L --> L_i, the functions j_i: L_i --> L defined by p_n(j_i) =3D id_L_i (n=3Di), p_n(j_i) =3D 0_n (otherwise) disp= lay the product L as a coproduct of the L_i. Indeed, given a family of sup-preserving maps f_i: L_i --> T to a = sup-complete test sup-semilattice T, the solution f: L --> T to the associated universal mapping problem j_i(f) =3D f_i is given simply by f(l) =3D f((..., l_i, ...)) =3D sup_i(f_i(l_i)) (l =3D (..., l_i, ...) &i= sin; L). In fact, one may thus even see id_L as the sup of all the compositions j_i(p_i), much as happens (using addition) for the biproduct of modules, only using not addition but the infinitary "N-linear" or "semi-additive" = structure relevant to the category of sup-complete sup-semilatiices. Even more, as Dana May knew already back whenever that was, the examples of ℵ-complete sup-semilattices illustrate that one can = have categories in which products and coproducts of up to ℵ objects= coincide, but larger ones differ -- for pretty much any ℵ (by "pretty much any" should I probably mean "any regular cardinal", i.e., = any cardinal not the sum of fewer smaller cardinals? I'm not sure). If Dana May is lurking in the background, reading these communications, I'd sure be glad to learn more from her what finally became of the line of thinking these considerations were part of, and what terminology she settled on for such "infinite biproducts" and for categories having them.= Cheers, -- Fred Linton [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]