From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.science.mathematics.categories/7298 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Colin McLarty Newsgroups: gmane.science.mathematics.categories Subject: Re: Bourbaki & category theory Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 06:53:15 -0400 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: Colin McLarty NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1337905661 9836 80.91.229.3 (25 May 2012 00:27:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 00:27:41 +0000 (UTC) Cc: categories@mta.ca To: George Janelidze Original-X-From: majordomo@mlist.mta.ca Fri May 25 02:27:40 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: gsmc-categories@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from smtpx.mta.ca ([138.73.1.80]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SXiNT-00087h-Aj for gsmc-categories@m.gmane.org; Fri, 25 May 2012 02:27:35 +0200 Original-Received: from mlist.mta.ca ([138.73.1.63]:44072) by smtpx.mta.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1SXiMk-0005Ro-AB; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:26:50 -0300 Original-Received: from majordomo by mlist.mta.ca with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SXiMm-0000KA-91 for categories-list@mlist.mta.ca; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:26:52 -0300 In-Reply-To: Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.mathematics.categories:7298 Archived-At: On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 7:36 AM, George Janelidze wro= te: > I am ready to take back my criticism and apologize, if the "longer senten= ce" > is correct. But is it? Yes, it is. I am an expert on Bourbaki history. See my articles on Chevalley, Dieudonn=E9, and Weil in the New Dictionary of Scientific Biography. As Eduardo says, it is a historical question. Here are the historical facts Bourbaki's first publication was Bourbaki, N. [1939]: Th{\'e}orie des ensembles, Fascicules de r{\'e}sultats, Paris: Hermann, Paris. It is very sketchy on "structures," and uses no notion of mapping between structures except isomorphisms. Their actual theory of structures first appeared in Bourbaki, N. [1957]: Th{\'e}orie des ensembles}, Chapter 4, Paris: Hermann. That theory was a rear-guard action meant to give an alternative to category theory. As i mentioned before, Weil was citing the categorical idea, and thinking about finding an in-house alternative to it, already in 1951. By 1957 Grothendieck, and Cartier, and Chevalley, probably Dieudonne, and others, all saw that category theory was more agile than these structure, simpler, and more to the point, plus it had a natural "higher order" aspect in the theory of functors which was actually more useful in practice than categories alone. Cartier has justly said it would have been a huge job to formulate all Bourbaki's ideas in terms of categories and functors. It would have called for a lot of ideas which were only invented in the coming years. It was relatively easy to give Bourbaki's theory of structures -- because it never really worked at all even for Bourbaki's purposes (as Corry documents in detail). Naturally it is easier to give an unusable theory of structures than to work out the ways categories and functors would actually be used. best, Colin > > I am certainly not an expert in Bourbaki history, and, as far as I rememb= er, > they say no word about morphisms in the historical part of "Theory of Set= s" > and give no references on categories. But I think they "always" believed > that structures determine isomorphisms but not morphisms, and I don't thi= nk > they changed their mind between 1951 and 1957. > > When I say "they" I mean "those of them who made main decisions about the > Bourbaki tractate". Because I hope (!) that not all of them were happy th= at > categories are not even defined in the tractate. > > In my previous message I wrote "Removing Bourbaki's formalism..." but in > fact that "formalism" is (not nice but) serious, in the sense that it tak= es > us further away from abstract categories. > > Anyway, we need to know, if it is still possible, how exactly did Bourbak= i > definition of morphism(s) came up. > > George > > [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]