From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.science.mathematics.categories/7438 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Fred E.J. Linton" Newsgroups: gmane.science.mathematics.categories Subject: Re: Terminology; categorical versus categorial. Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 22:08:04 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Fred E.J. Linton" NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1347110747 14732 80.91.229.3 (8 Sep 2012 13:25:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 13:25:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: , To: Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine Original-X-From: majordomo@mlist.mta.ca Sat Sep 08 15:25:49 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: gsmc-categories@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from smtpy.mta.ca ([138.73.1.128]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TAL2d-0004OZ-26 for gsmc-categories@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 15:25:43 +0200 Original-Received: from mlist.mta.ca ([138.73.1.63]:46109) by smtpy.mta.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TAL1t-0007cW-G6; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 10:24:57 -0300 Original-Received: from majordomo by mlist.mta.ca with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TAL2G-0004HY-RF for categories-list@mlist.mta.ca; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 10:25:20 -0300 Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.mathematics.categories:7438 Archived-At: Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine added: > Both constructions have plenty of examples; the OED online=E2=80=99s wi= ld-card > search is useful here, e.g. > http://www.oed.com/search?searchType=3Ddictionary&q=3D*orical&_searchBtn=3D= Search. > This gives 81 words with -orical, against 279 with -orial. The -orial > examples are mostly from verb roots =E2=80=94 dictatorial, professorial= , etc. Of course, these two don't stem from any "dictatory" or "professory", or?= > =E2=80=94 but with some exceptions: armorial, (im)memorial, and so on. = I=E2=80=99m > not enough of a linguist to see any full explanation for which words > get which suffix. The question is not which sort of ending occurs more frequently, -orical or -orial, but whether there's a "rule" by which a final "-y" on a noun gets converted to a final, adjectival, "-ial". I suggested earlier, by a long list of such nouns, that, if there is = such a rule, it's more honored in the breach than in the observance. Again, if there is such a rule, why does it not apply to the nouns bigotry, burglary, comedy, empathy, felicity, poetry, progeny, prosody, registry, sodomy, sophistry, story, symphony, therapy, ..., zealotry? = We have neither storial nor storical, for instance (despite "historical" (but not "historial") from history), nor ... (left to the reader) ... . Even for words like memory, remedy, or testimony, the results of the = *+y =3D> *+ial "rule" have meanings rather far from the adjectival = "relating to the notion of *+y " meanings that most *+ical constructs = derived from corresponding *+y nouns have. Memorial, for example, is a noun, signifying an object serving to recall a given memory, not an adjective signifying "relating to memory"; remedial, though an adjective, signifies, "serving to remediate", not = "relating to the notion of a remedy"; and a testimonial is, again, a noun= , = not an adjective meaning "of, or related to, testimony". Perhaps only arterial, from artery, comes close, but even it means "flowing as through an artery", rather than "related to, or having to = do with, arteries". And alluvial, jovial, sartorial, are words in the *+ial camp that do not,= = however, arise from any application of Peter Pease's proposed "rule", any more than do radial or medial -- or their ^c^ counterparts radical and medical: there is no noun alluvy, jovy, or sartory -- or rady or medy -- to apply such a rule to, any more than there is a cony = to engender conical, or comy for comical. > But in the case of categories, the OED backs up what others have > written: categorists are/were simply following standard usage. > =E2=80=9CCategorical=E2=80=9D is older and more widely used, going back= to 1598, and > with plenty of both colloquial and technical usage. =E2=80=9CCategoria= l=E2=80=9D > appears in 1912 in philosophy, and from the 50=E2=80=99s in linguistics= , but > remains mostly restricted to these fields. Google N-grams gives a > quick view of the comparative frequency: Comparative frequency of these endings is -- must I say again? -- irrelev= ant. (Ah: and Pease's "rule" doesn't work on "frequency", either? How comial := -) =2E) Cheers, and peace, -- Fred [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]