From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.science.mathematics.categories/7735 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Colin McLarty Newsgroups: gmane.science.mathematics.categories Subject: Re: Isbell & MacLane on the insufficiency on skeletal categories Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 11:47:42 -0400 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: Colin McLarty NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1369520731 5879 80.91.229.3 (25 May 2013 22:25:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 22:25:31 +0000 (UTC) To: "categories@mta.ca" Original-X-From: majordomo@mlist.mta.ca Sun May 26 00:25:32 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: gsmc-categories@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from smtp3.mta.ca ([138.73.1.186]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1UgMu4-0003FU-5B for gsmc-categories@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 May 2013 00:25:32 +0200 Original-Received: from mlist.mta.ca ([138.73.1.63]:60490) by smtp3.mta.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UgMsG-0004xX-08; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:23:40 -0300 Original-Received: from majordomo by mlist.mta.ca with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UgMsG-0002vm-FA for categories-list@mlist.mta.ca; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:23:40 -0300 Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.mathematics.categories:7735 Archived-At: There is no problem, either in practice or in formal ETCS or CCAF foundations, with assuming there is only one countably infinite set, call it N. Then indeed every function N-->N has graph N>-->NxN for some monic N>-->NxN. But there are uncountably many different monics N>-->NxN so it does not follow that all functions N-->N are equal. Different monics to NxN can have identical domains. Of course is also follows that NxN=N. But it does not follow, and in fact it is refutable, that the projection functions are the identity function 1_N. Isbell's argument is on p. 164 of my copy of CfWM (1998). On the plainest reading, it shows you could assume Xx(YxZ)=(XxY)xZ as sets, for all sets nX,Y,Z, but even then it is contradictory to suppose the associativity function Xx(YxZ) --> (XxY)xZ is always the identity function. This shows we cannot simultaneously maintain: 1) There is a category Set^2 with the usual properties of a functor category. 2) Isomorphic objects are equal in all categories. Mac~Lane concludes we cannot accept the sweeping skeletal principle 2. I will say some higher category theorists promote another option. They would keep 2, by rejecting 1, by saying there are not functor categories in the standard (1-categorical) sense, but only some infinity-categorical analogue. I do not know if that has ever been systematically spelled out though of course there are projects like Makkai's advocacy of FOLDS that are meant to go that way. Colin On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Staffan Angere wrote: > Dear Category theorists, > > in Categories for the Working Mathematician, page 164, MacLane relates an > argument, "due to Isbell", why one cannot identify all isomorphic objects. > I have not, however, been able to find any publication of Isbell that > contains the argument. Does anyone here know if he published it? > > I also have a question about the argument itself: why is it made the way > MacLane does it, rather than just though noticing that all functions from > countable sets are countable, and thus themselves countable, and so > isomorphic to any other countable set? It seems like it would follow > directly from this that any functions on the natural numbers have to be > equal, if isomorphic (i.e. equinumerious) sets are identical. Why is > MacLane doing all the "detours" though products, epics, etc.? > > Thanks in advance, > Staffan > [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]