From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26496 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2022 23:00:53 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jan 2022 23:00:53 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3FAF89D4C1; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:00:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299C79D4B2; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:00:43 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=pobox.com header.i=@pobox.com header.b="XtxF38EW"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 063519D4B2; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:00:42 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 413 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:00:40 AEST Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (pb-sasl1.pobox.com [64.147.108.66]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F10F89D06B for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:00:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4290D7B04B; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:53:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=sasl; bh=3L3EkeaB6r3HNa4m9Ksb1fIVsQtuiFdzT3 hNv02VOWE=; b=XtxF38EW7QOkqitmE9p5Ojo/F21QmZLPh22n1wyUveXhw0O+R4 9kX1AmYXc96vOSKidj7Mcrd5ySTGKGZN1TmiB/Om9xMM7lTkiw+NIqn3eErxsCXC +kltWy5qLJ6vtx6WrMBrxiZe4B/Kj5Sm2kWlIvMQ+W+Q1e5kXUh7jptyQ= Received: from pb-sasl1.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA4E7B04A; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:53:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Received: from [192.168.86.129] (unknown [203.132.93.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43C007B049; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:53:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) From: David Arnold Message-Id: <1A1EC0A2-4E57-4810-8765-570D1A5E2C16@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:53:40 +1100 In-Reply-To: To: Computer Old Farts Followers References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: A961F07E-74C3-11EC-A87E-895D709B1A4B-29049682!pb-sasl1.pobox.com Subject: Re: [COFF] Scribe (Typesetting System) and Unix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1460995288695270983==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============1460995288695270983== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6BEE72AA-20C4-43F7-A02B-40AD1D1021E7" --Apple-Mail=_6BEE72AA-20C4-43F7-A02B-40AD1D1021E7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 14 Jan 2022, at 01:56, Clem Cole wrote: <=E2=80=A6> > In real publishing, the division still exists: lots of > writing in, say, Microsoft Word that is reworked in publishing = software > like Quark or InDesign for actual printing. > To give ex-CMU and UCB grad, Ken Keller credit. He tried to bridge = that with his FrameMaker program (which I think Adobe still owns - I = have not seen much about it in few years and have lost track of Keller). = IIRC Ken's program could take a Scribe/LaTex style sheets also. But = FrameMaker (like Scribe) was expensive and originally required a UNIX = box with 32-bit linear addressing to compile, so it was fairly late to = the PC. I never really learned it although Ken gave me a copy early on = to play with. IIRC our doc folks at Stellar used it (whereas the = Masscomp/ORA folks of the time were strictly roff as previously = discussed).=20 I used FrameMaker for a while in the early 90=E2=80=99s, (on MIPS Ultrix = 4.4, DEC OSF/1 3.2/Digital Unix 4.0/Tru64 5.1, and Solaris 8/9). It was absolutely targeted at professional document production (vs. word = processing), and had a good separation between templates (with all the = styling and layout) and documents (which added the content). It was = also good at merging multiple documents into a book and applying = consistent style across the collection. I think the versions I used were still produced by Frame Technology(?) = =E2=80=94 before it was bought by Adobe anyway. Ironically, around that same time, Word for Windows 2.0 was IMHO the = peak of that product=E2=80=99s functionality, in that while it allowed = the user to randomly apply styling to the text, it was the last version = that made the template facilities an equal first-class citizen in the = UI. It was almost as easy to define and use =E2=80=9Csemantic=E2=80=9D = styles for formatting as it was to just do inline markup. Version 6 = (they went from 2 to 6 in one hop) bent the product firmly towards use = by amateurs, with toolbar buttons for bulleted lists, etc, that hid the = underlying use of styles, and thus avoided users incrementally learning = how to do consistent documents. =46rom my perspective, every release = since has made it worse. More recently, I=E2=80=99ve used DocBook for producing manuals, etc. = It=E2=80=99s an awful source format, but has the usual advantages of = being plain text, generating useful textual diffs, etc. Cobbling = together a production process using DocBook, XSLT, and FOP to emit = decent PDF is not for the faint-hearted, and (to circle back to = relevance) I always end up questioning whether it=E2=80=99d just be = better to use *roff or (La)TeX with a suitable macro package instead. d= --Apple-Mail=_6BEE72AA-20C4-43F7-A02B-40AD1D1021E7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = 14 Jan 2022, at 01:56, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

<=E2=80=A6>

In real publishing, the division still = exists: lots of
writing in, say, Microsoft Word that is reworked in publishing = software
like Quark or InDesign for actual printing.
To give ex-CMU and UCB grad, Ken Keller credit. He tried to = bridge that with his FrameMaker program (which I think Adobe still owns = - I have not seen much about it in few years and have lost track of = Keller).  IIRC Ken's program could take a Scribe/LaTex style sheets = also.  But FrameMaker (like Scribe) was expensive and originally = required a UNIX box with 32-bit linear addressing to compile, so it was = fairly late to the PC.  I never really learned it although =  Ken gave me a copy early on to play with.  IIRC our doc folks = at Stellar used it (whereas the Masscomp/ORA folks of the time were = strictly roff as previously = discussed). 

I used FrameMaker for a while in the early = 90=E2=80=99s, (on MIPS Ultrix 4.4, DEC OSF/1 3.2/Digital Unix 4.0/Tru64 = 5.1, and Solaris 8/9).

It was absolutely targeted at professional document = production (vs. word processing), and had a good separation between = templates (with all the styling and layout) and documents (which added = the content).  It was also good at merging multiple documents into = a book and applying consistent style across the collection.

I think the versions I = used were still produced by Frame Technology(?) =E2=80=94 before it was = bought by Adobe anyway.

Ironically, around that same time, Word for Windows 2.0 was = IMHO the peak of that product=E2=80=99s functionality, in that while it = allowed the user to randomly apply styling to the text, it was the last = version that made the template facilities an equal first-class citizen = in the UI.  It was almost as easy to define and use =E2=80=9Csemantic= =E2=80=9D styles for formatting as it was to just do inline markup. =  Version 6 (they went from 2 to 6 in one hop) bent the product = firmly towards use by amateurs, with toolbar buttons for bulleted lists, = etc, that hid the underlying use of styles, and thus avoided users = incrementally learning how to do consistent documents.  =46rom my = perspective, every release since has made it worse.

More recently, I=E2=80=99v= e used DocBook for producing manuals, etc.   It=E2=80=99s an awful = source format, but has the usual advantages of being plain text, = generating useful textual diffs, etc.  Cobbling together a = production process using DocBook, XSLT, and FOP to emit decent PDF is = not for the faint-hearted, and (to circle back to relevance) I always = end up questioning whether it=E2=80=99d just be better to use *roff or = (La)TeX with a suitable macro package instead.






d
= --Apple-Mail=_6BEE72AA-20C4-43F7-A02B-40AD1D1021E7-- --===============1460995288695270983== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KQ09GRiBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QKQ09GRkBtaW5uaWUudHVocy5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9taW5uaWUudHVocy5vcmcvY2dp LWJpbi9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2NvZmYK --===============1460995288695270983==--