On 30 Jun 2022 23:14 +1000, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): > What are the 1970’s & 1980’s Computing / IT skills “our grandkids won’t have”? Tediously typing computer programs into their (or others') systems from listings in printed magazines bought in and brought home from a store (by which I mean the physical, brick-and-mortar kind), only to spend anywhere from minutes to days figuring out why the program doesn't do what the magazine says it will, if it even works at all. This thread should probably be on COFF, not TUHS. -- Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
On 6/30/2022 9:23 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 30 Jun 2022 23:14 +1000, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): >> What are the 1970’s & 1980’s Computing / IT skills “our grandkids won’t have”? ... > This thread should probably be on COFF, not TUHS. (pre-Unix) dealing with punched cards and paper tape -- my first contact with PDP-8 was via paper tape -- I brought my dissertation programs to IBM in boxes of punch cards. Changing Selectric type balls -- the first office terminal I had at IBM Yorktown (in 1975) was a 1050, similar to a 2741, and my first home terminal (in 1980!) was a 2741. -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 575 bytes --] [Redirected to COFF] On Thursday, 30 June 2022 at 15:18:50 -0700, Rik Schneider wrote: > Using a cheap pocket AM radio as an improvised signal probe. Heh. It's only been 5 years since I bought a "transistor" radio for almost exactly that purpose, to track down damage to an electric fence. It didn't work :-( Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 904 bytes --] [Redirected to COFF] On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: > Tomasz Rola [01/07/2022 02.41]: > > I recall reading about some movie, whose fans >> were unable to understand why a protagonist took film (celuloid) to >> some "red room". They suggested it was for making photos sharper. > > Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least > not from the 1970s and on. ... Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used since long before that. Another thing that the film industry continually gets wrong. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1247 bytes --] [Redirecting to COFF] On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 16:05:30 +0300, Ori Idan wrote: > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 7:38 PM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> o why a memory access violation is reported as "segmentation fault" or >> "bus error", and the difference between the two >> >> o why CTRL/D is used to end a shell command line session > > I am not sure I know that, I'd be happy to know. It's the ASCII control character EOT (end of transmission). >> o why CTRL/S and CTRL/Q are used for flow control in a shell command >> line session >> > Also would be happy to know. Also ASCII control characters: XON (^S) and XOFF (^Q). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#Device_control tells me: DC1 and DC3 (known also as XON and XOFF respectively in this usage) originated as the "start and stop remote paper-tape-reader" functions in ASCII Telex networks. This teleprinter usage became the de facto standard for software flow control.[13] Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1097 bytes --] On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: > On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: >> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >> >> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >> since long before that. > > When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had > red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, > so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good reason. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1744 bytes --] I recall three darkrooms that I used, in 1960 a makeshift one in bathroom in my home, a regular one in an armory in Greenbelt MD about the same time, and one in the student union at UT Austin about 1970. All three used red lights IIRC. > On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: > > On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: >>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >>> >>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >>> since long before that. >> >> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had >> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, >> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. > > Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't > expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good > reason. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com> fax: +1.512.346.5240 web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ <http://technologists.com/sauer/> Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3854 bytes --]
I was a photography nerd in the 1980's and we used red lights. As nerdy as I was, I remember those times with fond memories. Something special about putting the paper in the mix and seeing the picture come out of nowhere. And the power you had with dodging to bring what you wanted into focus. On Fri, Jul 01, 2022 at 09:24:28PM -0500, Charles H. Sauer wrote: > I recall three darkrooms that I used, in 1960 a makeshift one in bathroom in my home, > a regular one in an armory in Greenbelt MD about the same time, and one in the student union at UT Austin about 1970. All three used red lights IIRC. > > > On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: > > > > On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: > >> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: > >>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: > >>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least > >>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... > >>> > >>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we > >>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used > >>> since long before that. > >> > >> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had > >> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, > >> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. > > > > Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't > > expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good > > reason. > > > > Greg > > -- > > Sent from my desktop computer. > > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. > > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php > > -- > voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com> > fax: +1.512.346.5240 web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ <http://technologists.com/sauer/> > Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer > -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2116 bytes --] On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 19:35:02 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Fri, Jul 01, 2022 at 09:24:28PM -0500, Charles H. Sauer wrote: >>> On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: >>> >>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >>>> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: >>>>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>>>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>>>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >>>>> >>>>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >>>>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >>>>> since long before that. >>>> >>>> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had >>>> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, >>>> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. >>> >>> Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't >>> expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good >>> reason. >> >> I recall three darkrooms that I used, in 1960 a makeshift one in >> bathroom in my home, a regular one in an armory in Greenbelt MD >> about the same time, and one in the student union at UT Austin >> about 1970. All three used red lights IIRC. > > I was a photography nerd in the 1980's and we used red lights. As nerdy > as I was, I remember those times with fond memories. Something special > about putting the paper in the mix and seeing the picture come out of > nowhere. And the power you had with dodging to bring what you wanted > into focus. Hmm. Strange. Maybe it's a USA thing. I *have* seen a red safelight (I bought a red filter for our school safelight just for the fun of it), but I can't recall anybody using one in earnest. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
On Fri, 1 Jul 2022, Larry McVoy wrote:
> I was a photography nerd in the 1980's and we used red lights. As nerdy
> as I was, I remember those times with fond memories. Something special
> about putting the paper in the mix and seeing the picture come out of
> nowhere. And the power you had with dodging to bring what you wanted
> into focus.
Ah, dodging... Well I remember my early photo days in the late 60s
(including developing my film in the wardrobe with a blanket over
everything and fixing them with diluted vinegar). Then years later I
discovered that my Uni had a photo lab replete with enlarger and glazer
:-)
Or taking your 110 film to the local chemist (and there'd better not be
any "naughty" pics on them, otherwise you wouldn't get them back). And
the yellow envelopes that came with every roll of Kodak colour slides
(which no longer seem to be able to be processed; I have a roll with
Halley's Comet on it).
The youngsters these days wouldn't know what we're talking about, of
course...
-- Dave
> The youngsters these days wouldn't know what we're talking about, of > course... Not about most of it. Bet they do get dodging and burning, though. The terms are used in image editing programs. De
No idea at all how old it was. I mean, a) I was a kid, and b) it was the first darkroom I'd ever seen so I had no basis of comparison. I'm sure it was at least one and maybe more generations of hand-me-down by the time I got to use it. But, I mean, "good enough for middle school kids, and we got it for free" was probably good enough, right?
Adam
> On Jul 1, 2022, at 6:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
>
> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote:
>> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
>>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote:
>>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least
>>>> not from the 1970s and on. ...
>>>
>>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we
>>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used
>>> since long before that.
>>
>> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had
>> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school,
>> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment.
>
> Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't
> expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good
> reason.
>
> Greg
> --
> Sent from my desktop computer.
> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program
> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2187 bytes --] On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 22:21:49 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >> On Jul 1, 2022, at 6:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: >> >> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >>> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: >>>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >>>> >>>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >>>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >>>> since long before that. >>> >>> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had >>> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, >>> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. >> >> Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't >> expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good >> reason. > > No idea at all how old it was. I mean, a) I was a kid, and b) it > was the first darkroom I'd ever seen so I had no basis of comparison. > I'm sure it was at least one and maybe more generations of > hand-me-down by the time I got to use it. But, I mean, "good enough > for middle school kids, and we got it for free" was probably good > enough, right? Yes, of course. I was just curious. But in the meantime many have reported using red safelights, so the answer's not that relevant. I dug back into my records, and found that I bought an OB (amber) and 3 (dark green, for panchro) safelight filter for the school darkroom on 19 May 1965. No mention of a red filter yet. And https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/Safelight-Recommendations.pdf agrees with me that amber is the most appropriate colour for black and white print paper. I wonder why red safelights were so prevalent. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
On Fri, 1 Jul 2022, Dennis Boone wrote:
> Not about most of it. Bet they do get dodging and burning, though.
> The terms are used in image editing programs.
How about solarising? That's where you sort of expose the print to light
part way through processing, to produce a sort of reverse image (I know
it's a bit vague, but it's been yonks since I was involved).
-- Dave
Dave Horsfall [03/07/2022 03.09]:
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2022, Dennis Boone wrote:
>
>> Not about most of it. Bet they do get dodging and burning, though.
>> The terms are used in image editing programs.
>
> How about solarising? That's where you sort of expose the print to light
> part way through processing, to produce a sort of reverse image (I know
> it's a bit vague, but it's been yonks since I was involved).
To nitpick, that is really the sabattier effect (after Armand Sabatier,
so it should really be with just one 't').
Real solarisation is an extreme overexposure, the usual example is the
sun appearing black.
--
Hilsen Harald
Слава Україні!
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 371 bytes --] On 2022-Jul-02 12:49:49 +1000, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote: >the yellow envelopes that came with every roll of Kodak colour slides >(which no longer seem to be able to be processed; I have a roll with >Halley's Comet on it). Kodachrome processing ceased in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodachrome#Cessation_of_processing -- Peter Jeremy [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 963 bytes --]
On 7/6/22 05:00, Peter Jeremy via COFF wrote: > On 2022-Jul-02 12:49:49 +1000, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote: >> the yellow envelopes that came with every roll of Kodak colour slides >> (which no longer seem to be able to be processed; I have a roll with >> Halley's Comet on it). > Kodachrome processing ceased in 2010: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodachrome#Cessation_of_processing > Kodachrome can be developed as black and white. These places and maybe more do it: https://processonephoto.com/kodachrome-processing.htm https://www.thecamerashop.com/imagecenter/kodachrome35.html http://rockymountainfilm.com/k14oldslide.htm (6-12 months turnaround?!) Someone has been working on color development, in fits and starts: https://emulsive.org/articles/darkroom/developing-film/they-took-my-kodachrome-away-so-i-brought-it-back