From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5CB2EBAC for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2024 00:43:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF394214B; Mon, 18 Nov 2024 09:43:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oo1-xc2a.google.com (mail-oo1-xc2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 180C54000D for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2024 09:43:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oo1-xc2a.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5ec4a40e95bso1654038eaf.1 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2024 15:43:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1731887002; x=1732491802; darn=tuhs.org; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:to:from:date:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cUi+sLDXIpSaIj+vZdcQtwS7rQnNsROHj+LZiov1QsY=; b=cNoRWCs+iNLzodX1R0yicPi6/rhtp/dT0Qeqj0DX66YcNWsLGHAdQcWE9YrSMvJgqD NZBf/iQFi2Aaf7sNBP20ZiTQVCGm4MP3xHTdlk/3flUBioJbVB+1UjrCv9a6Ui+lVmIj s677EJPi/jjqudnJAailSSv2iIwNJce2tWvmIPbq/IAunB6etPKbRNW9gWDHSB3oTE3u DpQEdHv62D+x+b7a3SucYAGuA4NC/PwZrzsaF9ys2xMHLq9oqHR0YAGJLa/JucDqEbDb Z1lgic+OSpmDx0BT3CcYlR9KackBAyhrqRYM5eXNltScvsJigP2KxkLEcYXHWYxf/p8R D/AQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1731887002; x=1732491802; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:to:from:date:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=cUi+sLDXIpSaIj+vZdcQtwS7rQnNsROHj+LZiov1QsY=; b=u7L+iSMrRv5gNVDBe6zbIaNVTdgBx8CE6v6CHi8xfUTAeFnwejjHAiVRbw8RNFlAzx 9LkjHpalle6/Cv4wVUpCn5zJHH5lNym9bRYmHabE8X+8HuKGrxlaDPc/2Awy8DENdDlu q0jGPuw3NtmPo3/1QrIALaEgW9CGi4TrFOfA/B59LpU3DCVSazJ28KG0vF8RYDTAUzmS dDKaa1pr+LkoSypvspbgynMoGNoTFTEBiEykoui55ry6oaQvAEQ/gBzTiJY+f9LnuDNu bIk+78ynfw+tOSDZZsWp5xohJhGS1zFS0oAyiXtplldF/Bd9J18FRPm0VBf/uPTrOumu RetA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyibtLPtlZ81ad/0dTFufaq0J3kYlZOfzrRdDaf/i9Bv2PwF5tR DpVXgyXtQs3I20yhmA2naXlq+eLGAoJOejmC10v03bmky9cifH8juY1qyg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFOPjNozTKWgoOQReqGpQMj2tA1oGZKC/kerz10vnPyWtaDK7MJqESvm/UtzZXeDZiD+GdZIQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:1e10:b0:5ba:ec8b:44b5 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5eeab419c20mr8119229eaf.3.1731887002286; Sun, 17 Nov 2024 15:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from illithid ([2600:1700:957d:1d70::49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 006d021491bc7-5eeabc7faacsm2388703eaf.9.2024.11.17.15.43.19 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 17 Nov 2024 15:43:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2024 17:43:18 -0600 From: "G. Branden Robinson" To: COFF Message-ID: <20241117234318.vx5ygtduutcsmiav@illithid> References: <01f401db3932$4b17f190$e147d4b0$@glassblower.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="i7nhofpadf4e54io" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Message-ID-Hash: YOWWZS2LMQI5JDHCVDXL7EQBZ5AQHMHP X-Message-ID-Hash: YOWWZS2LMQI5JDHCVDXL7EQBZ5AQHMHP X-MailFrom: g.branden.robinson@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: Fwd: [ih] NYT: Thomas E. Kurtz, a Creator of BASIC Computer Language, Dies at 96 List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --i7nhofpadf4e54io Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [COFF] Re: Fwd: [ih] NYT: Thomas E. Kurtz, a Creator of BASIC Computer Language, Dies at 96 MIME-Version: 1.0 I have a testimonial to offer as a member of the generation who really did grow up using 8-bit micros and Microsoft BASIC... > On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 4:33=E2=80=AFPM Dan Cross wrot= e: >> BASIC is much maligned, but was important nonetheless. At 2024-11-17T17:17:35-0500, Clem Cole wrote: [...] > But, in all of those cases there was much more computer behind it and > there was some argument the added complexity was worth it to expose > =E2=80=9Csystem=E2=80=99s features.=E2=80=9D Yes. I think Wozniak's Apple I made an excellent choice by booting into a monitor, not a specific language interpreter. Microsoft of course did not make that decision. They had a BASIC, and "the only thing that matters in this business is volume", as Gates has been quoted saying, so it was to their advantage to funnel all micro users down a cattle run if they could. And they did. And so did Apple, later. > The problem came in that because the core language K&K described was > so simple it was easy to implement on 8-bit systems. This was true of Forth, too. I knew of its existence (and Pascal, and COBOL) when I was a kid, thanks to magazines like _80 Microcomputing_, but didn't get to experiment with it in person until GNU Forth (also I had a chance to play with a Canon Cat for a time--that was pretty neat). > But by then the RSTS extension had started to become more popular > however the 8-bit micros lacked the systems-ness of even something > like RSTS. The result of the micro versions of BASIC was > Frankenstein=E2=80=99s creature - which was really hard to love unless you > knew no better. When I learned that micro BASICs all threw out Dartmouth's MAT operators, I was pretty annoyed. Even with a rudimentary exposure to matrix algebra in high school I could tell that they were the sort of computational application that screamed for automation by computer. Unless the machine sat in the corner of the room as a toy and was operated only by people who didn't write (or even modify) programs in the first place, and had zero curiosity about programming, I think the prevalence of the "forever corrupted by BASIC" specimen is overstated by several orders of magnitude. It was impossible to operate a TRS-80, an Apple, or a Commodore without being aware of alternatives to BASIC as a programming language-- foremost, the availability of machine language. The hobbyist magazines, like the aforementioned 80 Micro, the _Rainbow_ for a Moto 6809-based machine (nothing to do with the DEC product), and even Radio Shack's own "Microcomputer News" monthly, which absolutely was dedicated to flogging only products they sold from their own stores, ran features or columns on machine/assembly language programming in practically every issue. (The last went so far as to run a series presenting the architecture and some of the organization of the Sharp PC-1500/TRS-80 PC-2 "pocket computer". I would attach it for the list's amusement, but the PDF is too big. The author was Bruce Elliott.) ML was inescapable. It was blindingly faster than BASIC and necessary to program certain features of the hardware that Microsoft or its licensees didn't get around to abstracting in the language. Considering games, collections like David Ahl's were largely portable to help protect sales, and limited to Teletype-like interaction because that's often the environment whence they originated. But there were hardly any commercial game programs for the micros that _didn't_ poke into RAM for device configuration, contrive to poke ML subroutines for speed or obfuscation, or were just outright written in ML. To be unaware of alternatives to BASIC on an 8-bit macro was to achieve a miraculous feat of ignorance. Granted, I'm sure we've all met at least one programmer in our lives who fit that description. But a familiarity with BASIC likely wasn't their problem. An even halfway serious 8-bit micro user was never unaware of the underlying ISA. William Barden, Jr. wrote multiple bestselling books on assembly language programming, and he had competition. To not even be tempted to go to the "bare metal" on these machines would be a feat of self-restraint that would tax even the sternest ascetic. > And here in was the issue, because the micros were inexpensive and > they all included a simple BASIC you sort of warped a generation or > two without real guidance. And because there was little > standardization in the system interface anyway, what you saw was more > and more ugliness. By the time the micros grew up enough to support > more system features, MS was full bore into trying to own everything > so there private extensions became =E2=80=98standardize in there world bu= t no > where else.=E2=80=9D Alternatives to Microsoft's dialect of BASIC were known and sold, sometimes bundled with alternatives to the vendor's OS. Frequently these had better feature sets and/or higher performance than MS BASIC. They had to, to survive at all in the market. Microware's BASIC-09, a really disciplined dialect for the time that I feel pushed BASIC in the direction of Pascal as far as it could, was an eye-opener to me and prepared me well to encounter Pascal and C for real. And again, thanks to hobbyist magazines and culture I knew of the existence of those alternatives long before I got to experiment with them. One of the nice features about the M6809-based Color Computer 2, was that it shipped enough RAM chips for the entire address space along with its ROM. That meant that while part of the reset sequence copied the ROM into RAM, you could then get rid of it, replacing it with something else (usually an OS). You could then enjoy a BASIC-free, or even Microsoft-free, runtime environment. Again, the "(MS) BASIC is the only way" cohort must comprise (a) mythical beings, (b) mindless Microsoft boosters, and (c) the supremely incurious. I think the trope of maligning BASIC is more about maligning people, hence the emphasis on programmers supposedly being irreversibly brain damaged by having acquired competence in the language. Some people love to construct hierarchies and pecking orders, and often the person with the most prescriptions for who shall get pecked, and why, has a startlingly unimpressive beak for programming. > By then teacher has given up and switched to better teaching > languages, al biet, ones that did require a bit more computer system > to expose. Relatively few of us would go back to a Unix that would fit into a PDP-11/45 as a daily driver, either. ;-) At the risk of getting back on topic, I reviewed Kemeny & Kurtz's _Back to BASIC_ 15 years ago. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2140350.Back_to_BASIC?from_search=3Dtru= e&from_srp=3Dtrue&qid=3Dl7wRgphXzf&rank=3D9 Regards, Branden --i7nhofpadf4e54io Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEh3PWHWjjDgcrENwa0Z6cfXEmbc4FAmc6f5YACgkQ0Z6cfXEm bc4+Uw//ctDLuBa7I0eqXdYl5TBr+kM1BPr+52m5w5U9TrWIT1W1RvIdpoAS9ysL MXbn+fvEtZUOkNBHZAjQWCX/x8qa4x1i3flZDd07lflNEqqdo22rVlOuhkBhys8P yKuSMpAJxkGW/1tc5XeRphQTl22ImDZK69cUo8Uh7XccvwLhnJ5gwA4gyELiTA9u hzEQcsm70G83ljQZ+qBmTKRR9Md8scWyOJN6vQ4PU59s6RcBis/iit7FZkHgDwBT HGDpWqUU5HACPHUL2k5H3SJezzoOeCws+TblNjNt0qeT/+5R+iDoP2AT2vjdF0lY HSXVC2GNE6Zcmyal1SHOK2Gz/mGgtEN2ka2/XkVhv5RyVbgUwg/+evtDwV9ZwS4j hNesH8o0OLCnj2rcWcgt0rQ3YsAfjSPKSJTFiR27Jz+o31qmVTsFE0mBp9DAVszz LvabahbjA0xiORowKzWSCH2zse20nsOTiHIa6UL/3wDsjyYqSS7ZeyK146XLo4GF E6wzkdWfTBNFMAjU89MjypohXjrKHpfBXGFZbf3t8SV/Iz985OaAgLb2vpo00zy9 ukPJkqaMVnDr4qczXGJtdpLXGhX+RTGpL4lDVupl1TrhBAYo3OtkHrRIOf1ieUFF e049SnrKiVJgsCckJR76ZD+OnWvgUDyPF/ez0YsZRrWJSLvc2B0= =ieLm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --i7nhofpadf4e54io--