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[98.165.124.124]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m17-20020a170902db1100b00186acb14c4asm20841184plx.67.2023.01.02.11.53.41 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Jan 2023 11:53:41 -0800 (PST) From: Adam Thornton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.300.101.1.3\)) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2023 12:53:30 -0700 References: <52FB6638-AEFF-4A4F-8C2E-32089D577BA0@planet.nl> <464819f0-d2f6-2a60-6481-a194f4428b4d@case.edu> <20221230200246.GW5825@mcvoy.com> <88f83b4c-b3f9-ed87-b2fa-560fb369742a@makerlisp.com> <20221231035931.GG5825@mcvoy.com> <528f0c53-ccc2-88a1-5a7b-120362c648dd@mhorton.net> <20230102165120.GK25547@mcvoy.com> <20230102174304.GM25547@mcvoy.com> To: COFF In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8328BF52-5885-43F7-95CB-C20C7D0841FC@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.300.101.1.3) Message-ID-Hash: SRT2J77ZVE5YXDI54BJEG6X7VKPRJM3I X-Message-ID-Hash: SRT2J77ZVE5YXDI54BJEG6X7VKPRJM3I X-MailFrom: athornton@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On Jan 2, 2023, at 11:48 AM, Dan Cross wrote: >=20 > [Apologies for resending; I messed up and used the old Minnie address > for COFF in the Cc] >=20 > On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 1:36 PM Dan Cross wrote: >>=20 >> On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 1:13 PM Clem Cole wrote: >>> Maybe this should go to COFF but Adam I fear you are falling into a = tap that is easy to fall into - old =3D=3D unused >>>=20 >>> One of my favorite stores in the computer restoration community is = from 5-10 years ago and the LCM+L in Seatle was restoring their CDC-6000 = that they got =46rom Purdue. Core memory is difficult to get, so they = made a card and physical module that could plug into their system that = is both electrically and mechanically equivalent using modern = semiconductors. A few weeks later they announced that they had the = system running and had built this module. They got approached by the = USAF asking if they could get a copy of the design. Seems, there was = still a least one CDC-6600 running a particular critical application = somewhere. >>>=20 >>> This is similar to the PDP-11s and Vaxen that are supposed to be = still in the hydroelectric grid [a few years ago the was an ad for an = RSX and VMS programmer to go to Canada running in the Boston newspapers = - I know someone that did a small amount of consulting on that one]. >>=20 >> One of my favorite stories along these lines is the train signalling >> system in Melbourne, running on a "PDP-11". I quote PDP-11 because >> that is now virtualized: >> = https://www.equicon.de/images/Virtualisierung/LegacyTrainControlSystemStab= ilization.pdf >>=20 >> Indeed older systems show up in surprising places. I was once on the >> bridge of a US Naval vessel in the late '00s and saw a SPARCstaton 20 >> running Solaris (with the CDE login screen). I don't recall what it >> was doing, but it was a tad surprising. >>=20 >> I do worry about legacy systems in critical situations, but then, = I've >> been in a firefight when the damned tactical computer with the = satcomm >> link rebooted and we didn't have VHF comms with the battlespace = owner. >> That was not particularly fun. And there is certainly no simple relationship between age and = likeliness-to-still-work. A couple years ago now, I helped inventory the business space and = warehouse of a man who had had a stroke and would thus not be able to = continue running his direct mail business. But in 2017, he was running = a direct-mail advertising business off an honest-to-god PDP-11/70 and a = bunch of ADM-3A terminals. He also had several Vaxen out in his = warehouse, a dozen or so TI Silent 700s, and even an 029 card punch. I = think his basic philosophy was to buy these machines as they were = surplussed and use them for parts, and apparently it worked fine for him = until his health failed. I've got what looks to be a pretty pristine = VAX-11/730 from the collection, which someday I will get a beefy enough = 110V-220V transformer to run (sure, I have 220 to my dryer, but I'm not = going to pay to have it run to my office), and an RM-80, which is now a = nightstand. I would be very surprised if the VAX wouldn't work with no = more than minor capacitor work. I also snagged a Sun 9-track tape drive = which came from NOAO and is back home in the correct building, if not = the correct office. It's a coffee table now, because I have no = half-inch tapes I want to read. If someone does, well, it still powers = up and spins the reels. Someone else can sacrifice the goats to get = whichever flavor of SCSI it speaks talking to something modern. My annual Elvis' Birthday Party is coming up, which is really a = boardgaming and retrogaming party, so I'm going through my stuff trying = to figure out what I want to have in Display Mode as guests arrive. A = lot of my mid-90s-through-mid-2000s stuff doesn't work anymore, like the = original Xbox, and the G5 powermac that suffered from the capacitor = plague. But my 80s consoles and 8-bit computers are mostly basically = working fine. The blue electron gun on my Bondi Blue iMac has failed, = which is sad, the better-built 90s workstations are OK, although the = CMOS battery on the SparcStation 10 is long-dead, and the power supplies = on pretty much all the Microvax 3000-series need rework (but the = VAK4kVLC is running fine, so there is a real VAX to play with). But in = general: both machines and magnetic storage prior to 1995 have a good = chance of still working (for very occasional duty, anyway), and then = there's a decade or so where it's probably dead, and then newer than = that is OK again. These things are all extremely fun to play with, but honestly I only = ever dust them off a couple times a year. For more-routine = retrocomputing jobs (like porting Frotz to TOPS-20), well, emulation = doesn't cost me nearly so much electricity, I don't have to deal with = fan noise, and I'm not worried about some capacitor somewhere giving up = its magic smoke, or just old solder joints finally cracking apart. = Because of the magic of Moore's Law, I can run several 36-bit systems at = once on a (back in the good old days, when you could actually get them) = $50 Raspberry Pi. Note that MetroTrainsMelbourne ended up with PDP-11-on-a-board plugged = into Windows XP systems, and some sort of ISA-bus-to-Unibus converter. = I wonder what they're doing now? It's always the peripheral support = that keeps you running on the original hardware, and from the = description and the age of the system I bet the VDU serial links were = pretty tightly coupled to the rest of the timetable generator, and I bet = that's the hard part to reengineer with equivalent functionality. Me, I = would have spent the second 5 years of the extension project paying = someone to implement an equivalent (but not necessarily bug-compatible) = scheduler and some sort of = message-bus-over-TCP/IP-to-small-form-factor-PCs-hidden-behind-HDMI-TVs = for the display units, in parallel with the existing system, with = particular attention to decoupling production of the schedule data from = delivering it to the remote users, so when that 10 years was up, I'd = have had something I was confident in switching to that would be cheaply = maintainable for a while, and where I could upgrade the display and = compute tech individually. But I also suspect management didn't agree = to spend their money that way. Adam=