From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23453 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2023 03:05:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jul 2023 03:05:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3259140AE2; Sun, 30 Jul 2023 13:05:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from lists.tip.net.au (pasta.tip.net.au [203.10.76.2]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9553E409B7 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2023 13:04:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (unknown [118.211.113.219]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailhost.tip.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4RD5nn6ZFRz9QnV; Sun, 30 Jul 2023 13:04:44 +1000 (AEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: steve jenkin In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 13:04:43 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8B61E61D-E6CD-4B30-8188-3D42A3BDA92E@canb.auug.org.au> References: To: COFF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Message-ID-Hash: IC4YIKOQM3OJDBBEFHTRSJO5SY6QD53C X-Message-ID-Hash: IC4YIKOQM3OJDBBEFHTRSJO5SY6QD53C X-MailFrom: sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: Typical Fate of Older Hardware List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Matt, You ask _great_ questions. How far back are you talking? I think drawing a time box (start, end) around what you collect would give you returns. There=E2=80=99s a central problem: there=E2=80=99s no money in old gear, while storage costs mount over time. i.e. Who=E2=80=99s Going to Fund You? [ Midnight Oil: Who=E2=80=99s = Going to Save You? ] It comes down to individuals keeping relics and privately funding = collections. Some manufacturers had museums, archives & collections, but those were broken up when companies closed / merged. There=E2=80=99s a famous archive collection that was lost due to wild = fires=E2=80=A6 Gordon Bell points out that in 1984, there were 91 US Computer = Manufacturers. Of them, in 1990 IBM & HP plus DEC & Data General) were left. [ MIPS, SGI, SUN & a host of others using RISC came & went over 1-2 = decades ] In 2000, just IBM & HP left from 1984, with computing being excised from = HP at some point. IBM survived 1991/ 92 after declaring the largest corporate losses in US = history, to the time. I think there=E2=80=99s around 10,000 IBM mainframes left now. Conversely, the number of running =E2=80=98instances=E2=80=99 continues = to grow=20 while physical machines & sites keep dwindling.=20 Specialists firms now host many mainframes. The real US experts are CHM, whom you already know. This is the Aussie version - which has had problems with keeping its = physical collection. They=E2=80=99d been given =E2=80=98cheap=E2=80=99 (free) storage space, = then the owners developed the site. A useful research project would be to compile a definitive list :) The collective noun / Industry Term for obsolete equipment used to be = =E2=80=9Cboat anchor=E2=80=9D. Finding old pieces of historic machines is hard. They=E2=80=99re big & = often fragile. Older (60=E2=80=99s & 70=E2=80=99s) gear was worth crushing & extracting = the gold & copper. That happened to a system I once worked on - it took a whole floor of an = exchange :-/ I was asked in the mid 1980=E2=80=99s about reusing chips from a later = model IBM 370 (40xx?). A friend=E2=80=99s company was upgrading all it gear after _3_ years. They got a quote for removal - it was worth less than nothing,=20 they had to pay to have it removed & broken down. As a Mech-Eng, he = couldn=E2=80=99t believe it. He took it for the steel cabinets & dumped the electronics. Remember that floor space, volume, power (kW), environment/ HVAC shrunk = significantly over time and various types of equipment & media stopped being used: cards, paper tape, 1/2=E2=80=9D mag tape, disk packs=E2=80=A6 There=E2=80=99s no point in keeping old media if you can=E2=80=99t read = the data therein, and older peripherals aren=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D - you=E2=80=99= ve got to keep old machines that can attach to them. Which costs space, power and maintenance and sometimes important data is = accidentally =E2=80=98orphaned=E2=80=99. For =E2=80=9CSound & Film=E2=80=9D, Australia keeps a national archive = and is in a constant race against time transferring content from old media to current. The problem once was unstable =E2=80=9Cnitrate=E2=80=9D film stock, now = it=E2=80=99s 2=E2=80=9D tape masters :( = While MIPS, GB & TB expanded, LAN=E2=80=99s and affordable networks gave = us workstations & much more. There=E2=80=99s many generations of superseded kit, data and software to = choose from :) There may have been 60,000 PDP-11=E2=80=99s produced and some were kept = running for decades commercially. Old, rusting hulks might be sitting in the corner of factories & barns = still - the same as vintage cars sitting =E2=80=99somewhere=E2=80=99, = rusting away. Australia has the =E2=80=9CHonour=E2=80=9D of still having the only = complete pre-1950 valve computer known. It was built in Sydney & used there from 1949 to 1955, then moved to = Melbourne in 1956 & used until 1964. It was then put in storage & mostly forgotten about until 1996, when it = was made to work again. It was put on display for a few years. Not quite bureaucratic =E2=80=9Cben= ign neglect=E2=80=9D, but close. CSIRAC=E2=80=99s 1953 replacement at Sydney Uni ran until 1963, then was = =E2=80=98broken up=E2=80=99. All the best in your quest - it=E2=80=99s a great question. I hope others can give you better, more concrete leads in where to find = =E2=80=9COld Electronics Kit=E2=80=9D. It might be OK to drive around the country side looking for old cars = rusting in fields or barns, but that=E2=80=99s not going to work for old electronics. People simply won=E2=80=99t know what they=E2=80=99re looking at when = =E2=80=98cleaning out=E2=80=99 an old house, they won=E2=80=99t understand that some of the items have value to = collectors. I=E2=80=99ve seen this with my own family. The Big Clean Out was = unplanned & hurried. Some people took stuff they thought might be valuable, but making a buck = was the motive. A bunch of working electronics was tossed in the =E2=80=99skip=E2=80=99 = (dumpster), not even recycled. Ken Thompson wrote he once got interested in player pianos and = discovered there=E2=80=99s a firm somewhere in the USA that has a large collection and will restore items = on demand. There might be people that curate & repair Old Electronics in the same = way. all my best steve j =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Last of the First, CSIRAC: Australia=E2=80=99s First = Computer = While other first generation computers around the world were = being shut down and dismantled,=20 CSIRAC at the University of Melbourne began a ser- viceable = second life.=20 Further engineering improvements were gradually incorporated = into CSIRAC during its time in Melbourne. For a further 8 years CSIRAC functioned as an open-shop = computing service and during this period,=20 from June 1956 to June 1964,=20 CSIRAC was switched on for about 30,000 hours=20 and processed about 700 computing projects.=20 Total maintenance time was approximately 10% of switch-on time. At the time of CSIRAC=E2=80=99s shutdown in November 1964 it was = already recognised by its operators to be an historically important = technological artefact.=20 This realisation was probably the major factor that contributed = towards its preservation.=20 Most other first generation electronic computers were dismantled = and scrapped. In most cases only a few minor artefacts remain extant.=20 Although Museum Victoria accepted CSIRAC for its collection the = computer was never put on public display. Its sheer bulk, and the relative drabness of its exterior, = mitigated against it being easily placed in any exhibition. =46rom 1964 to 1980 it was kept in storage at the museum=E2=80=99s= warehouse at Abbotsford where it was only sighted by staff and a few = enthusiasts. In 1980, Gerry Maynard, then Head of the Department of = Electronic Data Processing at Caulfield,=20 decided it would be an appropriate tribute to Trevor Pearcey to = have CSIRAC placed on display at Caulfield. Arrangements were made to move the computer from Museum Victoria = to the Caulfield campus. Assembly was supervised by John Daly.=20 =46rom 1980 to 1992 CSIRAC remained on show at Caulfield and was = a popular public attraction on Open Days. In September 1992 the computer was returned to Museum Victoria = (Scienceworks), but once again was placed in storage, this time at a museum store in Maribyrnong. While in storage there, CSIRAC, in January 1995, was lucky to = survive a flood of the Maribyrnong River.=20 Water reached the base of the computer but fortunately no damage = was done. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > On 30 Jul 2023, at 09:26, segaloco via COFF wrote: >=20 > Howdy folks, I wanted to get some thoughts and experiences with = regards to what sort of EOL handling of mainframe/mini hardware was = typical. Part of this is to inform what and where to look for old = hardware things. >=20 > So the details may differ with era, but what I'm curious about is back = in the day, when a mainframe or mini was essentially decommissioned, = what was more likely to be done with the central unit, and peripherals = if they weren't forward compatible with that user's new system. >=20 > Were machines typically offloaded for money to smaller ops, or was it = more common to simply dispose of/recycle components? As a more pointed = example, if you worked in a shop that had IBM S/3x0, PDPs, larger 3B = hardware, when those fell out of use, what was the protocol for getting = rid of it? Were most machines "disposed of" in a complete way, or was it = very typical to parts it out first, meaning most machines that reached = EOL simply don't exist anymore, they weren't moved as a unit, rather, = they're any number of independent parts floating around anywhere from = individual collections to slowly decaying in a landfill somewhere. >=20 > My fear is that the latter was more common, as that's what I've seen = in my lab days; old instrumentation wasn't just auctioned off or = otherwise gotten rid of complete, we'd typically parts the things out = resulting in a chassis and some of the paneling going in one waste = stream, unsalvageable parts like burnt out boards going in another, and = anything reusable like ribbon cables and controller boards being stashed = to replace parts on their siblings in the lab. I dunno if this is apples = to oranges though because the main instruments I'm thinking of, the = HP/Agilent 5890, 6890, and 7890 series, had different lifespan = expectations than computing systems had, and share a lot more of the = under the hood components like solenoids and gas tubing systems, so that = may not be a good comparison, just the closest one I have from my own = personal experience. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > - Matt G. -- Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design=20 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin