From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347672D1BF for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 17:49:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D66E436A1; Tue, 1 Oct 2024 01:49:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com (mail-pl1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C1D84369E for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2024 01:49:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-20b8be13cb1so11769705ad.1 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:49:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1727711380; x=1728316180; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VoZPFB7Bp3XplekHXhfCUmBXwqk1PFO9tdvPp6v7KSg=; b=EpLF0t6ez6HD1pxTKiCM/9KP3H7jJTMAM99iSWf69VQiO9t43S469VN2clG4e6wswp zJ3oj/CO9Lb0PG86ruesKaRTJcXWF7QrtyHASrNYgaXl4jc/Ekeo1/D4S5iKciH4Qzpy QA0pB4mNN1goX6FeIInb82TwNpRhHRLLTgmIFOG7eTTj/41BUC+9gxaxaj5VLNBk/XUW AADPQH9BjJpIyiegK7ascgQ+ILEd3iMMacXMhXTwZXB4vr91tD7u6+bW0e7H+67sH2kX sljVNMVZcFcdG/uYH3KQdy1Y4IKjPIi2x4XXr5r8SbX6ojGqW6cXGUdF/nLkOjGy1h/l aNLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1727711380; x=1728316180; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VoZPFB7Bp3XplekHXhfCUmBXwqk1PFO9tdvPp6v7KSg=; b=HDGMLOttqePk+yUbOTwA4SlSq/0w9AVCt5LxX2YmUSMIEUF3ACWQ7Wn8JEH/5DuLMn gePFJkXw0aMeNc4TiZQOg+uKTS/8OLMBtoVTEzb/VeIOFcsgJ2rEkII6CHKrw/5P5OCL mrPswE3dZJuuA93iJKAnxVZqjiAiqUFap/M3bbk75m+oB/ecqLFaYvpQo+oWYA/IfajM qgOnWi3yiOe9pMDBPSqcWxlDn0zNzgwLqqCan6ppgkrTL117gO7IM9otj4jZQAxNA/BZ JxvDosT4/scqk5PgL5dqGcMStPkvtwT1BUzyVCOoyIWvDEeCzOJgAQhs/hq9Ox2IeKPu LizQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXdA6FTvDIaFM32swkicPwWqqipq9nO7Vy/JporNljl6agNMMQv2i5OmgudyrsAvOzeWdTi@tuhs.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyZcQvfy1166tC3shHQWl8GjzkUAIYVOfNJfoWX7WhhWt8bjqWb fZ39OIszcEK+RMSy6bEOcQ8Jlpr2trU4nScUGPwC1201leKvKPCm4+rSPt0IvgwGjH8ZWlAcHGN mo0D+r2G5xd7iIQ7jp/FSREy7ZL19Yw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHnXZj7r6cBGDokudHTKf9lrAcdR2c/Jigah3QKTICz0RjsuyPqTz2456itrIRWmTAcQ7ARPg9r05OED4rVqG0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:c404:b0:207:16b9:808c with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-20b36cdcc02mr182656915ad.1.1727711379908; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:49:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240928165812.4uyturluj4dsuwef@illithid> <20240928180559.GF9067@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20240928180559.GF9067@mcvoy.com> From: Paul Winalski Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:49:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy , Computer Old Farts Followers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000012f2d70623582775" Message-ID-Hash: EAFOEEVTHIGXYV2MGVOGYRQVLCAICCRQ X-Message-ID-Hash: EAFOEEVTHIGXYV2MGVOGYRQVLCAICCRQ X-MailFrom: paul.winalski@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: Minimum Array Sizes in 16 bit C (was Maximum) List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000012f2d70623582775 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [moving to COFF as this has drifted away from Unix] On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 2:06=E2=80=AFPM Larry McVoy wrote: > I have a somewhat different view. I have a son who is learning to progra= m > and he asked me about C. I said "C is like driving a sports car on a > twisty mountain road that has cliffs and no guard rails. If you want to > check your phone while you are driving, it's not for you. It requires > your full, focussed attention. So that sounds bad, right? Well, if > you are someone who enjoys driving a sports car, and are good at it, > perhaps C is for you." > > If you really want a language with no guard rails, try programming in BLISS. Regarding C and C++ having dangerous language features--of course they do. Every higher-level language I've ever seen has its set of toxic language features that should be avoided if you want reliability and maintainability for your programs. And a set of things to avoid if you want portability. Regarding managed dynamic memory allocation schemes that use garbage collection vs. malloc()/free(), there are some applications where they are not suitable. I'm thinking about real-time programs. You can't have your missle defense software pause to do garbage collection when you're trying to shoot down an incoming ballistic missile. -Paul W. --00000000000012f2d70623582775 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
[moving to COFF as this has drifted away from Unix]

On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at= 2:06=E2=80=AFPM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.c= om> wrote:
=C2=A0
I have a somewhat different view.= =C2=A0 I have a son who is learning to program
and he asked me about C.=C2=A0 I said "C is like driving a sports car = on a
twisty mountain road that has cliffs and no guard rails.=C2=A0 If you want = to
check your phone while you are driving, it's not for you.=C2=A0 It requ= ires
your full, focussed attention.=C2=A0 So that sounds bad, right?=C2=A0 Well,= if
you are someone who enjoys driving a sports car, and are good at it,
perhaps C is for you."

If you really want a language with no guard rails, tr= y programming in BLISS.

Regarding C and C++ having= dangerous language features--of course they do.=C2=A0 Every higher-level l= anguage I've ever seen has its set of toxic language features that shou= ld be avoided if you want reliability and maintainability for your programs= .=C2=A0 And a set of things to avoid if you want portability.
Regarding managed dynamic memory allocation schemes that use ga= rbage collection vs. malloc()/free(), there are some applications where the= y are not suitable.=C2=A0 I'm thinking about real-time programs.=C2=A0 = You can't have your missle defense software pause to do garbage collect= ion when you're trying to shoot down an incoming ballistic missile.

-Paul W.
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