From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 17510 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2023 16:29:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jun 2023 16:29:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9FD140C02; Wed, 14 Jun 2023 02:28:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22e.google.com (mail-oi1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8917940C00 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2023 02:28:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-38dec65ab50so3170399b6e.2 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:28:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1686673726; x=1689265726; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=o3cg18vPb+pKjzGQZymV7jGyfyqYNv452yo/+lh/rqQ=; b=WDiJML5Gh5jTvw8Nd/xUtBJd2qgxwbhyFtNC8EcD112iQHwPmIt6T/yz2M1GKs4455 yXy5a1Qdc4ZBWOq15/Zi49j+5NQFr0JYJ4B9TBhnHJyA7w5rxKkT3adumgIbBQglrlQU Fpqiv1QxT7T9ef8lzrXUx9Q8iRCujzF9xQEnxob5zeC7D+VDEY1pO+82vEu944RcbUf0 mxJ/dvTSHkQ0YCv5z66LHA+PNYvJjmHEpiY6Abk6SSn+nWLyUwPyAEKN2raiVjyfC6su rdJtFs9qV2iRRtxnF5TPmIChbOruOpdknm/+fVJhRQJXb6di0sQUmrK98/NzQvsbBMoQ 89Sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1686673726; x=1689265726; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=o3cg18vPb+pKjzGQZymV7jGyfyqYNv452yo/+lh/rqQ=; b=hOudltFuPBV2Q9OlQ0MUbYPWQd+3nRLOVLriLBSMM/CD0ut+mia+Wt8f2xOIjlsvB/ 81938AgReKj94/Qcs9tjlEkjnhztsn3oopglW2EvkqX9g/SpKcVVgtxPRnXTapEoAYp1 NhfnBZIHeg3pWQvStVxSKNDH1MWQpCxwidE+NJoSdO3c0Z/GErTpbpUdRnCFdZRrC0V0 d8nFtGvXICGajfPY8CquoR1ydluIJLHBMPKfqgC+Chna0un23Y7b4IdgOTFSsn3Kwk6i 8OIHTrYgWLWq+Z0mSD8aXZJMIp7xsJUsS2tdFOEkelmW1tXKC104/5xgZK1vOtUwDXPM UZow== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDxCZYjRzgSLyKimOxWZ4aOTBTSWkZSFFWoPyPW7HKTaUav9aPAc DwAXz73xwd6GDJ0QSSf/ZHqRkCefPYCyy/vXbARr63a3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ6ur6giX5RMxKMZdNn1JYnyj5/kYGmq0C0uantApqAGhi7tXL2Vmvg7lx+/dsu8xNSQoNPJ2Z0qPKdlAjBm1iI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1187:b0:398:2a35:f328 with SMTP id j7-20020a056808118700b003982a35f328mr8979445oil.8.1686673726624; Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:28:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6a10:f48f:b0:4c1:7ec0:eb04 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:28:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20230612234953.pwu7oi6hyglsaqzs@illithid> References: <20230612213912.mywv5znz66pk3n5q@illithid> <20230612234953.pwu7oi6hyglsaqzs@illithid> From: Paul Winalski Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 12:28:45 -0400 Message-ID: To: "G. Branden Robinson" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: DTA4Z7N77CSZPJKAU4B3WFT67SDBBI4R X-Message-ID-Hash: DTA4Z7N77CSZPJKAU4B3WFT67SDBBI4R X-MailFrom: paul.winalski@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Computer Old Farts Followers X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: crt0 -- what's in that name? List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On 6/12/23, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > > To bang an old drum of mine, while Unix culture pats itself on the back > for economizing keystrokes with an ad hoc compression scheme for every > name in sight, it too often overlooks what discarded in pursuit of this > form of minimality: clarity, lack of ambiguity, and ease of acquisition > by newcomers. IMO, one area where Unix is severely deficient is online help for the novice or casual user. man pages are fine if you already know the command you want to use and just need to know details about options and switches. But man pages are utterly useless if your question is "what command do I need to use to do X?" The Unix problem of non-obvious command names is made worse by some of the commands whose names are obscure in-jokes. The worst offender is probably the biff utility. This is the command that lets you set notifications for incoming email. Why biff? Because a friend of the guy who wrote the utility had a dog named Biff who used to bark at the mailman. > >> Most operating system ABIs, Unix included, don't have a formalized >> mechanism for dealing with the differences between startup semantics >> of various programming languages. They deal with the problem in an >> ad-hack fashion. The one exception that I know of is VMS (now >> OpenVMS). Tom Hastings was the architect who designed the original >> VAX/VMS ABI. He was aware from the get-go that several programming >> languages had to be supported and he made sure that his design was >> general enough to allow programmers to write routines in the most >> suitable language for them, to mix and match modules written in >> different languages in the same program, and to easily make calls from >> one language to another. It was a stroke of genius and I haven't seen >> its like in any other OS (several times I've wished it was there, >> though). > > Thanks for mentioning this. I think you had pointed this out some > months ago, but I had difficulty remembering the details of "who had > solved the ABI problem the right way a long time ago", but could not > remember enough of it to dredge it up even with repeated searches. > > Unfortunately Google remains stymied even by the quite explicit terms Try "openvms common language environment" in Google. The Common Language Environment (CLE) is the official name for the architectural rules that facilitate multi-language programming. VMS (officially OpenVMS; I hated that marketing name when it was first proposed and I hate it now) is still alive and supported by a company called VMS Software, Inc. (VSI). Here is a pointer to their document OpenVMS Programming Concepts, Volume II, which describes the CLE in detail: https://vmssoftware.com/docs/VSI_PROGRAM_CONCEPTS_VOL_II.pdf -Paul W.