From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4906A2259A for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 14:51:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5FE8435E4; Sat, 11 May 2024 22:51:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFB88434B7 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 22:51:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-deb654482bcso3137191276.1 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 05:51:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715431899; x=1716036699; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cBERMzFW3ApCrN3Hl2nz5pzpuAx8BG838/W1XdHhzjc=; b=KmWkHksp7D/Mu6tjk1fZxz8Z32s7z+BxGL16V1l2yE1PCr5sbfsTehkXtXiiF7qHRv wsOIwnbEzuRs8NHZBoSOzz4jl2ma1W+MyU4pH78Qch4tvbLv7uJR4hiBFZUK5SgO9o7t bpyewyTA1yEe6vlRqEsvyVdubyvGdnWbAFA27owL5xy6ByY7w8UGqZM+2t3HT+3WQXfl NFOEqc3fvlp43bC3zTZK/F8Hb37amSs1wG+wk4GekTitlphhDkyJp092AK6Q85sdA1Qk VUwsBeG0Sh7t8dyrclbz3vgZ4UxXgJYs2Iph2N+x9vbtyL60qCzx1cCg+bGG5C75oR4P 1nog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715431899; x=1716036699; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=cBERMzFW3ApCrN3Hl2nz5pzpuAx8BG838/W1XdHhzjc=; b=s6QZVnbIAQGUNUZpbAfQ8o21L7FLvk9mt7eXxJcr0/TA7dIzEVrEWOBMZrLOLbdfVS WIMUQEiBYerSJq3jlVA5gvvX6N20NlpTWHKVwImzyg1ZnMfxrOL4sZ2ddV8eZYdSweDD QShXHbEdu5M03Vp4wLZ1m+4A6p9LWYnPVnxjDpDv3beRGz6uf4zTGs+DEQAnC4pRg+iR ighFryUaeHZ7ZO8juYg7P5RO0C3nocsSpSAD1bBApyLQ1ELI0jgJ9J9gclgmY6xMHFpu x/84G6eIBgMH/4DO7li4vEis7f0Yywf5kf8zAGPCHPiI/0d7TASqA7C1QtxmyUGgrV9c VCOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx9FDn7Ox5KG0Wn0Zt+6GXgkjyFWlErggrr9mTPe8VPWQ/2xeYl e8KDZKSQPXvUG4qDcHafN4+aWUe6teCHweJuVxAJeG43peW+o2xSFshsafkybPOEneaUa3rHoqu 86Qn2jS5wIiD003vR/q3VOIwP9j4+4w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHZjbzXVP9LpxbwuRZn3F9wSS9DxnTLh084MhrJKNingl6i9Xci04bd/obSindXqizGxRni6ItqQLkzjPT4pbk= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:802:0:b0:deb:d87e:b2c7 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dee4f355085mr4995740276.49.1715431898582; Sat, 11 May 2024 05:51:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "John P. Linderman" Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 08:51:27 -0400 Message-ID: To: nliber@gmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f3974b06182d1cfb" Message-ID-Hash: AZGGWO4E2RGS6ODEWTL623EL7VYM6UBQ X-Message-ID-Hash: AZGGWO4E2RGS6ODEWTL623EL7VYM6UBQ X-MailFrom: jpl.jpl@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: coff@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] On Bloat and the Idea of Small Specialized Tools List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000f3974b06182d1cfb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marc Rochkind used to advise reading the entire UNIX manual cover to cover each year. The manual was short enough that it could be done in a day or two. It was a great way to discover commands and system calls you didn't use every day, and deepen your understanding of the ones you did use every day. We were in a center that ran PWB UNIX, and the manual was overseen by Ted Dolotta, who was a stickler for good writing. I can't imagine trying to do something similar now. -- jpl On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 7:23=E2=80=AFPM Nevin Liber wrot= e: > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 11:37=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole wrote: > >> The key is that not all "bloat" is the same (really)=E2=80=94or maybe on= e >> person's bloat is another person's preference. >> > > A lot of "bloat" comes because our systems really aren't focused on > "discoverability". > > While I probably have used "pr" in the past, I've totally forgotten, the > name "pr" doesn't really help me understand what it is for, and it's just > one of 982 files in my /usr/bin directory alone. How does one discover i= t? > > It's like using "sed" instead of "head": sure, if you already know "sed", > you don't need "head", but for English speaking folks who know "tail" is > there, it would be (and was in the old days) surprising and frustrating n= ot > to have "head". > > If I have a command and I want it to do something slightly different, the > first place I look is to see if there is a command line option for that. = I > know how to discover that (either --help or the man pages). > > GUIs were better at discoverability. The menu at the top made it easy to > see (and constantly reinforced) what was possible, at least until we got > into the era of contextual menus, gestures and force presses. > > They aren't perfect. I get plenty of dialog boxes which have a check box > for "Do not show this message again" which I don't dare check, because I > don't know how to bring up whatever choice it wants me to decide on shoul= d > I need to change it in the future. > > > And once you have users/customers, it's hard to get rid of things, becaus= e > they value stability. > -- > Nevin ":-)" Liber iber@gmail.com> > +1-847-691-1404 > --000000000000f3974b06182d1cfb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar= c Rochkind used to advise reading the entire UNIX manual cover to cover eac= h year. The manual was short enough that it could be done in a day=C2=A0or = two. It was a great way to discover commands and system=C2=A0calls you didn= 't use every day, and deepen your understanding of the ones you did use= every day. We were in a center that ran PWB UNIX, and the manual was overs= een by Ted Dolotta, who was a stickler for good writing. I can't imagin= e trying to do something similar now. -- jpl

On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 7= :23=E2=80=AFPM Nevin Liber <nliber@g= mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 11:37=E2= =80=AFAM Clem Cole <c= lemc@ccc.com> wrote:
The key is that not all "bloat" is the same (really)=E2=80=94or= maybe one person's bloat is another person's preference.

A lot of "bloat&qu= ot; comes because our systems really aren't focused on "discoverab= ility".

While I probably have=C2=A0used "= ;pr" in the past, I've totally=C2=A0forgotten, the name "pr&q= uot; doesn't really help me understand what it is for, and it's jus= t one of 982 files in my /usr/bin directory alone.=C2=A0 How does one disco= ver it?

It's like using "sed" instea= d of "head": sure, if you already know "sed", you don&#= 39;t need "head", but for English speaking folks who know "t= ail" is there, it would be (and was in the old days) surprising and fr= ustrating not to have "head".

If I have = a command and I want it to do something slightly different, the first place= I look is to see if there is a command line option for that.=C2=A0 I know= =C2=A0how to discover that (either --help or the man pages).

=
GUIs were better at discoverability.=C2=A0 The menu at the top m= ade it easy to see (and constantly reinforced) what=C2=A0was possible, at l= east until we got into the era of contextual menus, gestures=C2=A0and force= presses.

They aren't perfect.=C2=A0 I get ple= nty of dialog boxes which have a check box for "Do not show this messa= ge again" which I don't dare check, because I don't know how t= o bring up whatever choice it wants me to decide on should I need to change= it in the future.


And once you hav= e users/customers, it's hard to get rid of things, because they value s= tability.
--
<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">
=C2=A0Nevin= ":-)" Liber=C2=A0 <mailto:nliber@gmail.com>=C2=A0 +1-847-691-1404
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