From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24610 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2021 16:21:12 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Nov 2021 16:21:12 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 49E9B9C2E7; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 02:21:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44CCA9C203; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 02:20:07 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="UAu8iADi"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 46B859C203; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 02:20:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com (mail-qk1-f170.google.com [209.85.222.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 218C19C1E1 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 02:20:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id a11so14444657qkh.13 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 08:20:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=sI/R9D1ACg2LBAe3X1q/kWTOd5ywfDEHhtz4xM2j6es=; b=UAu8iADi694IOfNA1831Y/JUKMRjEkO6rNtC8eaGb3CgrAMk/ywxBmN7iU/+pVE9ix 5cjXXvgJYH3c7y+7qJ22OFCU6ns+qwh18vOXrFU+0jOb8CLLrMSSDOC+eYRn18WN3oTR rmJ3kKlljy/Op7EVV5pZK4wKbpZjLhUNw2AH4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=sI/R9D1ACg2LBAe3X1q/kWTOd5ywfDEHhtz4xM2j6es=; b=enimNCLHRc7AT951hoy+ZMMps1j/mKBKchOItJnH7xjqc7+PdQHGREd62IxQllcpN3 hCNnI8LsETMvZTwmEXakAH4EQw4ih/01nd+XDQ4RVV3XFZOx8o8+ragLfDcAvE9rFTWz 3uP0oPiK5P6KK2p1oZtNwHBy96GmKeJLBOmY//72zqAuj31XnrCfw7VHk1ikmkSKxk4X YKBPr7/2D3JWLZrFFBLvGrPXMmJ5VKwf5s8J8IIq4kbfcMdtCENZWOPvUbFfBQd+BiOa eG+Vz3IEq8KAj93lIlq94WMhFJWtHmFiGRXSKTKlbwC0fYJK6658yts0BABMrCF713Am l7Bg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53161ouosKeZQnxiTf+iMzNp6b75lAgiMaMsVGhTEZWQzwy+Nls5 zri1Ta/QTzy3L3X/buLv4ayGG/GKyLo6E4hoqd2lXA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1JVGvV3tLzThKRgyioR4+j26rKeSM56a+s7w9CcQqJ4nxwhmMMWWuc/eLgf2zCMmoR5aYqTQ95sD1IKWJZ+M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:754:: with SMTP id i20mr7133007qki.312.1637079603056; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 08:20:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211116040858.se3ygq2butxqopcx@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 11:19:38 -0500 Message-ID: To: Adam Thornton , COFF Subject: Re: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4536775263210347650==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============4536775263210347650== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000035ab7e05d0ea4c9c" --00000000000035ab7e05d0ea4c9c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Moving to COFF ... On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:50 AM Adam Thornton wrote: > I'm not even sure how much of this you can lay at the feet of teachers: = I > would argue that we see a huge efflorescence of essentially self-taught > programming cobbled together from (in the old days) the system manuals a > Ouch ... this is exactly my point. In my experience in ~55 years of programming, with greater than 45 of those being paid to do it, the best programmers I know and have worked with were taught/mentored by a master -- not self-taught. As I said, I had to be re-educated once I got the CMU. My Dad had done the best he knew, but much of what he taught me was shortcuts and tricks because that is what he knew =F0=9F=A0=AA he taught me= syntax, not how to think. I know a lot of programmers (like myself) that were self-taught or introduced to computing by novices to start and that experience get them excited, but all of them had real teachers/mentors who taught them the true art form and helped them unlearn a lot of crap that they had picked up or miss-interpreted. Looking at my father as a teacher, he really had never been taught to think like a programmer. In the late 1950s he was a 'computer' [see the movie "Hidden Figures"]. He was taught FORTRAN and BASIC and told to implement things he had been doing by hand (solving differential equations using linear algebra). The ideas we know and loved about structured programming and* how to do this well* were still being invented by folks like Doug and his sisters and brothers in the research community. It's no surprise that my Dad taught me to 'hack' because he and I had nothing to compare to. BTW: this is not to state all HS computer teachers are bad, but the problem is that most people that are really good at programming are actually quite rare and they tend to end up in research or industry -- not teaching HS. Today, the typical HS computer teacher (like one of my nieces) takes a course or two at UMASS in the teacher's college. They are never taught to program or take the same courses the kids in science and engineering take =F0=9F=A0=AA BTW I also think this is why we see so much o= f the popular press talking about 'coding' not programming. They really think learning to program is learning the syntax of a specific programming language. When I look at the young people I hire (and mentor) told, it's not any different. BTW: Jon and I had a little bit of a disagreement when he wrote his book. He uses Javascript for a lot of his examples - because of exactly what you point out =F0=9F=A0=AA Javascript today, like BASIC before= it, has a very high "on-screen results" factor with little work by the user. Much is being done behind the covers to make that magic happen. I tend to believe that creates a false sense of knowledge/understanding. To Jon's credit, he tries to bridge that in his book. As I said, I thought I knew a lot more about computers until I got to CMU. Boy was I in for an education. That said, I was lucky to be around some very smart people who helped steer me. Clem =E1=90=A7 --00000000000035ab7e05d0ea4c9c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Moving to COFF= ...

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:50 AM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:
= =C2=A0I'm not even sure how much of this you can lay at the feet of tea= chers: I would argue that we see a huge efflorescence of essentially self-t= aught programming cobbled together from (in the old days) the system manual= s a
Ouch ...=C2=A0= =C2=A0this is exactly my point.=C2=A0 In my experience in ~55 years of pro= gramming, with greater than 45 of those being paid to do it, the best progr= ammers I know and have worked with were taught/mentored by a master -- not = self-taught.=C2=A0 As I said, I had to be re-educated once I got the CMU.= =C2=A0 My Dad had done the best he knew, but much of what he taught me was = shortcuts and tricks because that is what he knew=C2=A0=F0=9F=A0=AA he = taught me syntax, not how to think.=C2=A0 I know a lot of program= mers (like myself) that were self-taught or introduced to computing = by novices to start and that experience get them excited, but al= l of them had real teachers/mentors who taught them the true art form and h= elped them unlearn a lot of crap that they had picked up or miss-interprete= d.

Looking at my father as a teacher, he=C2=A0re= ally had never been taught=C2=A0to think like a programmer.=C2=A0 In the la= te 1950s he was a 'computer' [see the movie "Hidden Figures&qu= ot;].=C2=A0 He was taught FORTRAN and BASIC and told to implement things he= had been doing by hand (solving differential equations using linear algebr= a).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ideas we know and loved about structured programming a= nd how to do this well were still being invented by folks like Doug = and his sisters and brothers in the research community. It's no surpris= e that my Dad taught me to 'hack' because he and I had nothing to c= ompare to.=C2=A0 =C2=A0BTW: this is not to state all HS computer teachers a= re bad, but the problem is that most people that are really good at program= ming are actually quite rare and they tend to end up in research or industr= y -- not teaching HS.=C2=A0 Today, the typical HS computer teacher (like on= e of my nieces) takes a course or two at UMASS in the teacher's college= .=C2=A0 They are never taught to program or take the same courses the kids = in science and engineering take=C2=A0=F0=9F=A0=AA BTW I also thi= nk this is why we see so much of the popular press talking about 'codin= g' not programming.=C2=A0 They really think learning to program is lear= ning the syntax of a specific programming language.

When I look at the young people I hire (and mentor) told, it'= ;s not any different.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BTW:=C2=A0 Jon and I had a little bit of= a disagreement when he wrote his book.=C2=A0 He uses Javascript for a lot = of his examples - because of exactly what you point out =F0=9F=A0=AA= =C2=A0Javascript today, like BASIC before it, has a very high &qu= ot;on-screen results" factor with little work by the= user.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Much is being done behind the covers to make that magic = happen.=C2=A0 I tend to believe that creates a false sense of knowledge/und= erstanding.

=
To Jon's credit, he tries to bri= dge that in his book.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I said, I thought I knew a lot more ab= out computers until I got to CMU.=C2=A0 Boy was I in for an education.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 That said, I was lucky to be around some very smart people who h= elped steer me.

Clem
<= /div>
=3D""=E1=90=A7
--00000000000035ab7e05d0ea4c9c-- --===============4536775263210347650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KQ09GRiBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QKQ09GRkBtaW5uaWUudHVocy5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9taW5uaWUudHVocy5vcmcvY2dp LWJpbi9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2NvZmYK --===============4536775263210347650==--