From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EF82F4D2 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2024 23:17:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9C24235E; Mon, 18 Nov 2024 08:17:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa35.google.com (mail-vk1-xa35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a35]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80BA842184 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2024 08:17:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa35.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-50de14e7d8cso1404024e0c.1 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2024 14:17:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1731881866; x=1732486666; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VmC76zxvcRdKG7t/z1Hw8UQJq1jafR9Hb7mO1fXVlQU=; b=eJgQmL1pb4yIwyiZRXYUqfwxi/QcYrlLoOUDObrkNv4NmNGW8q7wc1dcyyEwY4v0o6 3Xjs9EbIyoNcDXTIM2ddi1hv3oAtzxGqNUeJ11V8+aCdLN3EM+cVhMYsp+8sTsvXU2xp HvNQoWKSLqvpvzgBRLovLKiKWAzIpQdV1Y5ds= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1731881866; x=1732486666; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=VmC76zxvcRdKG7t/z1Hw8UQJq1jafR9Hb7mO1fXVlQU=; b=kz3popIcueBjX2bIbrEFrajajk32cak6Yx7FiZ/Y9LsZ7VEVRvDq1paEDJE37L8NiF h0t8M8OEmX8EJ1hoEUY5a4NKcxrzrwYiWNPmCD7OVJ835ehSz9myp8GaGiMjhOorPfh0 O/l9086NOzDXVzSMWiNedzesN9hynu2rs84cOHjLeFQg7GXKhY2TslA1xMZvhj6wpI0H raB+gmy6LA1IrxsFdZZ0dqZRbJIOa+B6IN+z8BJoLPPNWf+bTeksh09Dtpad//eekmPJ gZ4opZRM0YFk9Y2L99XJAS84WfuXb/s76oK3pnBceY8Hc3hAA1y0GOQQwwzLvkC3+4t7 tQug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzh/CX3Did4oJtzZdtYIegfmNFn//mDr55hEenmOXpsx4FzevPY 5qDRvKnuG5zNAmZlZcbczSPz6zYzNbbHleVDFV/BvqhRJGTQ4zONvpkfpj2pVYVBo8fhgRYHhdn 782l9d7rxHSqn1zA3/WuoKun5xziTo2DwgI30 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEpBZZ+puALCm48ROiCHXapJEK3mplRhaFZPDh5U9BL0FACFyqYRRM3ztF9jNtJoMsxjYBpabCVAXkgo/0vrhA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:54b:b0:50d:869a:e542 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-51477f99ce3mr9127493e0c.9.1731881866548; Sun, 17 Nov 2024 14:17:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01f401db3932$4b17f190$e147d4b0$@glassblower.info> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2024 17:17:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007308680627232b62" Message-ID-Hash: SY6FDHP3574MMZRE5V3OKS4NJ63YYJ3R X-Message-ID-Hash: SY6FDHP3574MMZRE5V3OKS4NJ63YYJ3R X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: Fwd: [ih] NYT: Thomas E. Kurtz, a Creator of BASIC Computer Language, Dies at 96 List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007308680627232b62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indeed. The problem is it took a life of its own beyond what really should have been used. When it was the original Dartmouth K&K language I learned in 1967 on DTSS it was much simpler. HP added to it a small amount with the 2100 implementation and the DEC10 even more so, and by the later RSTS implementations DEC expanded it and added way more to it than K&K described in the goals, first papers and book. Although, with care, the original examples I think with run on RSTS. But, in all of those cases there was much more computer behind it and there was some argument the added complexity was worth it to expose =E2=80=9Csyst= em=E2=80=99s features.=E2=80=9D The problem came in that because the core language K&K described was so simple it was easy to implement on 8-bit systems. But by then the RSTS extension had started to become more popular however the 8-bit micros lacked the systems-ness of even something like RSTS. The result of the micro versions of BASIC was Frankenstein=E2=80=99s creature - which was rea= lly hard to love unless you knew no better. And here in was the issue, because the micros were inexpensive and they all included a simple BASIC you sort of warped a generation or two without real guidance. And because there was little standardization in the system interface anyway, what you saw was more and more ugliness. By the time the micros grew up enough to support more system features, MS was full bore into trying to own everything so there private extensions became =E2=80=98standardize in there world but no where else.=E2=80=9D And MS eventually gave away the primary idea behind K&K in the first place - really simple, so any one could use it. Thus make it a good first language. But try running any of the K&K examples from there book (I still have a copy btw) with VBASIC. By then teacher has given up and switched to better teaching languages, al biet, ones that did require a bit more computer system to expose. Clem Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 4:33=E2=80=AFPM Dan Cross wrote: > I don't believe this was sent here yet. BASIC is much maligned, but was > important nonetheless. > > - Dan C. > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Tony Patti via Internet-history > Date: Sun, Nov 17, 2024, 3:50=E2=80=AFPM > Subject: [ih] NYT: Thomas E. Kurtz, a Creator of BASIC Computer Language, > Dies at 96 > To: > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/16/technology/thomas-kurtz-dead.html > > (published yesterday November 16, 2024) > > > > "At Dartmouth, long before the days of laptops and smartphones, > > he worked to give more students access to computers. > > That work helped propel generations into a new world." > > > > Me too, I owe it all to BASIC. > > Because 5 decades earlier, via an ASR 33 Teletype and acoustic coupler at > 110 baud > > to a remote HP 2100, BASIC was my introduction to computers and > programming. > > > > Tony Patti > > (ARPAnet NIC IDENT "TP4") > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history@elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > --0000000000007308680627232b62 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Indeed.=C2=A0 The problem is it took a life of its own be= yond what really should have been used.=C2=A0 When it was the original Dart= mouth K&K language I learned in 1967 on DTSS it was much simpler.=C2=A0= HP added to it a small amount with the 2100 implementation and the DEC10 e= ven more so, and by the later RSTS implementations DEC expanded it and adde= d way more to it than K&K described in the goals, first papers and book= .=C2=A0 Although, with care, the original examples I think with run on RSTS= .

But, in all of those c= ases there was much more computer behind it and there was some argument the= added complexity was worth it to expose =E2=80=9Csystem=E2=80=99s features= .=E2=80=9D

The problem c= ame in that because the core language K&K described was so simple it wa= s easy to implement on 8-bit systems.=C2=A0 But by then the RSTS extension = had started to become more popular however the 8-bit micros lacked the syst= ems-ness of even something like RSTS.=C2=A0 The result of the micro version= s of BASIC was Frankenstein=E2=80=99s creature - which was really hard to l= ove unless you knew no better. =C2=A0

And here in was the issue, because the micros were inexpensiv= e and they all included a simple BASIC you sort of warped a generation or t= wo without real guidance.=C2=A0 And because there was little standardizatio= n in the system interface anyway, what you saw was more and more ugliness.= =C2=A0 By the time the micros grew up enough to support more system feature= s, MS was full bore into trying to own everything so there private extensio= ns became =E2=80=98standardize in there world but no where else.=E2=80=9D= =C2=A0

And MS eventually= gave away the primary idea behind K&K in the first place - really simp= le, so any one could use it.=C2=A0 Thus make it a good first language. But = try running any of the K&K examples from there book (I still have a cop= y btw) with VBASIC.=C2=A0

By then teacher has given up and switched to better teaching languages, a= l biet, ones that did require a bit more computer system to expose.=C2=A0

Clem




Sent from a handheld exp= ect more typos than usual


On Sun, Nov 17, 20= 24 at 4:33=E2=80=AFPM Dan Cross <cro= ssd@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't believe this was sent here yet. BASIC is much malig= ned, but was important nonetheless.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

---------- Forwarded messag= e ---------
From: Tony P= atti via Internet-history <internet-history@elist= s.isoc.org>
Date: Sun, Nov 17, 2024, 3:50=E2=80=AFPM
Su= bject: [ih] NYT: Thomas E. Kurtz, a Creator of BASIC Computer Language, Die= s at 96
To: <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>


https://www.nytimes.com= /2024/11/16/technology/thomas-kurtz-dead.html

(published yesterday November 16, 2024)



"At Dartmouth, long before the days of laptops and smartphones,

he worked to give more students access to computers.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0

That work helped propel generations into a new world."



Me too, I owe it all to BASIC.

Because 5 decades earlier, via an ASR 33 Teletype and acoustic coupler at 110 baud

to a remote HP 2100, BASIC was my introduction to computers and programming= .



Tony Patti

(ARPAnet NIC IDENT "TP4")



--
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history@elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailma= n/listinfo/internet-history
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