From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 10388 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2022 16:20:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jan 2022 16:20:46 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D32B89CFD2; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:20:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA549CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:20:41 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="ck3GQFCs"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CE7049CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:20:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f47.google.com (mail-qv1-f47.google.com [209.85.219.47]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51D969C78F for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:20:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f47.google.com with SMTP id 15so7029955qvp.12 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:20:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nCcvVCLyWPLK6ZxDozM2QaufPSlR8TPSNfb0d9G863k=; b=ck3GQFCs52toDa92oBnmW26uROvmVWgr2YWLJce4bbBTd66WxFHjQGtyVCSmzxOfRO nr/15SrStyXefRgpNpdammgwBWpRrxQ0y6Nim+OgUMUSNXkmCwbZSbvIolRVC4zQ4guK 32Go5KdozEcz6S5ptat6CipbXLRIS+g/H5rgQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nCcvVCLyWPLK6ZxDozM2QaufPSlR8TPSNfb0d9G863k=; b=FkZsa5ln3Nb21b7jX1ZSUt1ReC3XKxO0hFK+iKGejc1y4T+6AWO996qIlsg3yqlbHc jtB8CmDu/E7EhCpYt2Y/LWEQmQD/D4TPgYMHxqf1Q1fv7qmYFawUOzSNXE0l2gN2yd9S /rIt2zSOmpaiGRT48qh+5vQIRtlk6zmZem0z39zYwOhdIdNXzBwvQLj5po2LER91CFYR 9Fq2uTkm9F5R4ghJQNWQxT3tzYp5BOMmjP7a4YGa1cz/gnwH3IHtgAvjvAbumXCVbLYc 1Psp40JTx28jpfyCdrUlp0fYCpgsmJU4vCkmaW3MQjOA+s3Zs+w4M6Hq1zW+nzYf4lob MZ8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ln0HfAIeBEviblGeATi2CkSoWx1cwk5JAL+YsTqMgBYXhrK1W 8GHG8Q7vXWHXQKA40d7zcrL6r2527PZhvVhc6DBbwQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzK+xMC/U/l5HlT9unTwCTrFyTI0fT8g+JsahXe12itVwvPpRdYEhvgOe3muPDMJWHwq8LrskMH/YePmhyp/0U= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:beca:: with SMTP id f10mr4660418qvj.97.1642090838126; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:20:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 11:20:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Subject: Re: [COFF] Scribe (Typesetting System) and Unix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0563719061958190806==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============0563719061958190806== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000018815305d57911d0" --00000000000018815305d57911d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:03 AM Warner Losh wrote: > You can best view them as -ms vs -me. Two different sets of macros to > markup the text with semantic information that's then turned into useful > rendering by a variety of ways. texinfo and latex are completely unrelated > at a code level. LaTeX predates texinfo by some time (I've not looked it > up, but I encountered LaTeX years before texinfo, though it's possible I > just ignored it when working on bringing up GNU Emacs on VMS 5.mumble back > in the day). It was always my impression that texinfo came more from the > ITS info file world and that the TeX bits were initially just a hack > because it was also on those machines... It would be interesting to hear > from people that were there. > That was always my impression. Stallman hated troff (and man) because it was not integrated into EMACS (his operating system). I always got the impression that texinfo was more of a shot against man pages and trying to push the purity of the 'ITS-way' to Unix. And of course the problem became the more he did that, the less use texinfo became except for anyone that followed his gospel. As Unix became the mainstream, it meant information for any gnu tools was (is) disjoint. If rms had been willing to just accept the man command itself, I suspect that would not have been. To be fair, its not an unusual behavior. Folks coming from VMS (or windows) try to make Unix look like that. And what did we do with VMS, we added the cshell and Unix tools so people like me could type on it. I'm currently being driven nuts by the simh tool which has a very TOPS/VMS style feel. Everything is help commands. The documents are quite sparse. To me the documents/book (or man pages) should primarily ' go to' and if you want something like 'help' then create it from the documents. But I can not really complain. It's a wonderful tool and its author comes from that heritage not Unix. The problem I remind him is that he will get silly questions from people like me, because we can not find things in his help system - its just not how a Unix program tends to work [I want to look in the index of the document, and find the section myself]. --00000000000018815305d57911d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On T= hu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:03 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
You can best view them as= -ms vs -me. Two different sets of macros to markup the text with semantic = information that's then turned into useful rendering by a variety of wa= ys. texinfo and latex are completely unrelated at a code level. LaTeX preda= tes texinfo by some time (I've not looked it up, but I encountered LaTe= X years before texinfo, though it's possible I just ignored it when wor= king on bringing up GNU Emacs on VMS 5.mumble back in the day). It was alwa= ys my impression that texinfo came more from the ITS info file world and th= at the TeX bits were initially just a hack because it was also on those mac= hines...=C2=A0 It would be interesting to hear from people that were there.=
That was alw= ays my impression. =C2=A0 Stallman hated troff (and man) because it was not= integrated into EMACS (his operating system).=C2=A0 I always got the impre= ssion that texinfo was more of a shot against man pages and trying to push = the purity of the 'ITS-way' to Unix.=C2=A0 And of course the proble= m became the more he did that, the less use texinfo became except for anyon= e that followed his gospel.=C2=A0 As Unix became the mainstream, it meant i= nformation for any gnu tools was (is) disjoint.=C2=A0 If rms had been willi= ng to just accept the man command itself, I suspect that would not have bee= n.

To be fair, its not an unusual behavior.=C2=A0 Folks coming fr= om VMS (or windows) try to make Unix look like that.=C2=A0 And what did we = do with VMS, we added the cshell and Unix tools so people like me could typ= e on it. =C2=A0 I'm currently being driven nuts by the simh tool which = has a very TOPS/VMS style feel.=C2=A0 Everything is help commands. The docu= ments are quite sparse.=C2=A0 To me the documents/book (or man pages) shoul= d primarily ' go to' and if you want something like 'help' = then create it from the documents.=C2=A0 But I can not really complain. It&= #39;s a wonderful tool and its author comes from that heritage not Unix.=C2= =A0 The problem I remind him is that he will get silly questions from peopl= e like me, because we can not find things in his help system - its just not= how a Unix program tends to work [I want to look in the index of the docum= ent, and find the section myself].
<= br>

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