From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 632 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2021 19:05:04 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Apr 2021 19:05:04 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6BE1E9CA05; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 05:04:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90139C641; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 05:04:51 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="hL66Xb+w"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 72E9D9C641; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 05:04:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f171.google.com (mail-qk1-f171.google.com [209.85.222.171]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2999C63F for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 05:04:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f171.google.com with SMTP id x11so6024317qkp.11 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 12:04:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pqryeVeq+W2/LlqRUUptB8o+usVJt7HyGVW5IaS6Dqo=; b=hL66Xb+wgoiIxlBcIXD1q6JD/tbdZQDmjlPZIlTfFmpJ/U6Bs91q90ekPBTqW7mPxd 1G3iKoQICXaIImWhjY+69cA7IwOiwgjFea7VFWWn3yUd3KcP+dQaXl3gOPFQF9a+4IU9 Jk9Zyrt9CuSHW6ShJFbXWZJRgFQVEvbhlVZ6U= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pqryeVeq+W2/LlqRUUptB8o+usVJt7HyGVW5IaS6Dqo=; b=M6oezIITqjzlbNT7l4fvZt+jDtr80IGZEf8wShHsfRrZFLJH/zDrRst3PCsWkWu7Is mi6lGfj0CGEV4hnWug65+zlULEJyob60l5IX4JbwFvkDaLdQABpIBAE+83Ro1Il9WJyC dja7moSAywv72Hs4JzSt3avui7iS0PPV8AnrGzzu5X+0vSZXzm1uIsYS9s995HYup557 9XtHEvZwzfARn2a4XolSDRzkC5FyqY+fNCdxQV46y4yZE8GnXouznECaJxpCKtrrP+bN ie4sQ5JB0jSh/wbX+fajEsMpfuUNOZ24v/KHoVtLcIwJPTenRW5mqX2SUELj4ctI6/Jq 6o6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hlVay/0y4HWMDbmxacJBmq3zFMDXwrJqID8h+2aNMg5q+oZOx oQSgw+lbEtANJzpw86qZuSB86Lx7wTeVewWjMnAbV1uBzLp9+DES X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJnCsiyUjZERf/bEPXQDNGPyQ0/J5Mb+YGYn6gZvTQqLbmxFeBoN+G3gEtzQb1aL33EGkKSmWSPUASNil3K10= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:12ae:: with SMTP id x14mr14652729qki.25.1617390288573; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 12:04:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 15:04:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Subject: [COFF] how was TCF different or similar to Mosix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Josh Good Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5330059267952973349==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============5330059267952973349== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009d2f7a05bf020571" --0000000000009d2f7a05bf020571 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 1:50 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > Out of curiousity, how was TCF different or similar to Mosix? > Many similar ideas. TCF was basically the commercial implementation of the Locus, which Jerry and students built at UCLA (one 11/70s original). I want to say the Locus papers are in some early SOSPs. MOSIX was its own Unix-like OS, as was Locus [and some of this was in Sprite too BTW]. TCF was a huge number of rewrites to BSD and was UNIX. The local/remote restructuring was ad-hoc. By the time Roman and I lead TNF, we had created a formal VPROC layer as an analog to the VFS layer (more in a minute). TNC was to be the gut of Intel's Paragon using OSF/1 as base OS. The basic idea of all of them is that the cluster is looks like a single protection domain with nodes contributing resources. A Larry says a ps is cluster-wide. TCF had the idea of features that each node provides (ISA, floating-point unit, AP, *etc*..) so if a process needed specific resources, it would only run on a node that had those resources. But it also meant that processes could be migrated from a node that had the same resources. One of the coolest demos I ever saw was we took a new unconfigured PS/2 at a trade show and connected the ethernet to it on the trade show network, and put in a boot floppy. We dialed back into a system at an LCC, and filled in some security things, details like the IP address of the new system and soon it booted and joined the cluster. It immediately started to add services to the cluster, we walked away, and (overnight) the system had set up the hard disk and started caching locally things that were needed for speed. Later I was editing a file and from another screen migrated the process around the cluster while the editing was active. The problem with VPROC (like VFS) is it takes surgery all over the kernel. In fact, for Linux 2.x kernel the OpenSSI folks did all the kernel work to virtualize the concept of process, which sadly never got picked up as the kernel.org folks did not like it (a real shame IMO). BTW, one of the neat side effects of a layer like VPROC is things like checkpoint/restart are free -- you are just migrating a process to the storage instead of an active processor. Anyway, Mosix has a lot of the same types of ideas. I have much less experience with it directly. --0000000000009d2f7a05bf020571 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 1:50 PM Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
Out of curiousity, how was TCF different or similar to Mosix?
Many similar ideas.=C2=A0 TCF was basically the commercia= l=C2=A0implementation of the Locus, which Jerry and students built at UCLA = (one 11/70s original).=C2=A0 I want to say the Locus papers are in some ear= ly SOSPs.

MOSIX was its own = Unix-like OS, as was Locus [and some of this was in Sprite too BTW].=C2=A0 = TCF was a huge number of rewrites to BSD and was UNIX.=C2=A0 The local/remo= te restructuring was ad-hoc.=C2=A0 =C2=A0By the time Roman and I lead TNF, = we had created a formal VPROC layer as an analog to the VFS=C2=A0 layer (mo= re in a minute).=C2=A0 =C2=A0TNC was to be the gut of Intel's Paragon using OSF/1 as b= ase OS.

The basic idea of all of them is that= the cluster is looks like a single protection domain with nodes contributi= ng resources.=C2=A0 =C2=A0A Larry says a ps is cluster-wide.=C2=A0 TCF had = the idea of features that each node provides (ISA, floating-point unit, AP,= etc..) so if a process needed specific resources, it would only run= on a node that had those resources.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But it also meant that pro= cesses could be migrated from a node that had the same resources.
<= br>
One of the coolest demos I ever saw was we took a new unconfigu= red PS/2 at a trade show and connected the ethernet to it on the trade show= network, and put in a boot floppy.=C2=A0We dialed back into a system at an= LCC, and filled in some security things, details like the IP address of th= e new system and soon it booted and joined the cluster.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It imme= diately started to add services to the cluster, we walked away, and (overni= ght) the system had set up the hard disk and started caching locally things= that were needed for speed.=C2=A0 Later I was editing a file and from anot= her screen migrated the process around the cluster while the editing was ac= tive.

The problem with VPROC (like VFS) is it takes su= rgery all over the kernel.=C2=A0 =C2=A0In fact, for Linux 2.x kernel the OpenSSI=C2=A0fol= ks did all the kernel work to virtualize the concept of process, which sadl= y never got picked up as the kernel.org f= olks did not like it (a real shame IMO).=C2=A0 =C2=A0BTW, one of the neat s= ide effects of a layer like VPROC is things like checkpoint/restart are fre= e -- you are just migrating a process to the storage instead of an active p= rocessor.

Anyway, Mosix has a lot of the same types of= ideas.=C2=A0 I have much less experience with it directly.=C2=A0
<= br>

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