From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 763 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2022 14:57:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jan 2022 14:57:27 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 98C5F9CFF0; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:57:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F459CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:57:18 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="KQ5xA8Rh"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EAB8B9CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:57:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f43.google.com (mail-qv1-f43.google.com [209.85.219.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 107919C78F for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:57:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f43.google.com with SMTP id t7so6872351qvj.0 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 06:57:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ClHNwzIp4jSawarzp9mCSPzaU2l7OGS7z4QhZeFwDNs=; b=KQ5xA8RhNjyHpnzTDqZX2PphgOZBGYZI1FW2DBriV2nD2jEQhVFMdGHeanKko6la/9 aYdfKoOkE0Y9cYmFh1he3vitcb9WKZy2wTd26/oeA6KYAv+z3TJGZNtZB4vKVfnDoY0K WFr4+LdYLbHI/IpEuw/7Wikpx/OsifE8I3mqg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ClHNwzIp4jSawarzp9mCSPzaU2l7OGS7z4QhZeFwDNs=; b=qFIXAylNByiWRvCqEVlnwtuaX4/OkFFc10N6l+ZcheK5ZaQimKtITJC1+geM/BkWC/ Cjt6k8h3NRunyrN8/BpRuVJ6Hqw8KyqOfXWpjp0edjARXBkx445iuopRTgeLqN7ScM+w 14mrknp46zPeN1lX8KGf4UlZHRMyPC+vcr7tNgdvhtyUMjDZ3oirm6LO4DfFrAd05PlE HINv5++cCin/w4tjsQACOkVDXs79LxZWPpXOFf6qzy/0tQ7Ad75DEihPNAtcUFQOJ8Li aapoBE4s5W9IUwqwLd/G0l0fqVALNCHbzIh9GsnwGr4oZUeRaVZOqryl4slerQ2Y1u2v K5Mw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5335f83U2ig+Ib9CuctKHyU0jiZChR/ilbDMbBZTni9Cr28+UxZ2 3xjCJ0eI1QZTZqAnSzlQDfE64VqYyek3NPQwv5idgXza8EWcpA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCYTeCEQOEsERZKOxjPobNAEhovpeAIe+MoAQJkoLwH6UcIptF/F7AwVzbohg1PiPBVApn7aYchBbp/eS3v0w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:23c6:: with SMTP id hr6mr4066158qvb.126.1642085834771; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 06:57:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:56:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: Win Treese Subject: Re: [COFF] Scribe (Typesetting System) and Unix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: coff@tuhs.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1260916724221801166==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============1260916724221801166== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000df5dc805d577e6c4" --000000000000df5dc805d577e6c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable below.... [excellent job -- you wrote what I had planned -- few tweeks/color added below]. On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:31 PM Win Treese wrote: > Scribe was in the mix after troff and TeX. Fun fact, I believe that bwk was Brian's thesis committee > Brian Reid=E2=80=99s observation was that writers should be writing, and > publishing professionals should design how documents look. It was even more important than that. Brian Reid observed that *most documents* looked like their brethren. For instance, the Unix doc looks like BTL TM format. Each university tends to have a 'style' for their thesis [-me 'knows' how to generate UCB thesis format]. Office correspondence (letters, memo for file) have a certain look. So he wants to separate the description of the output (*i.e.* a template) for a document and not make the person that did want (need too) think about the output, just do their thing (as you said -- let writer's write). > Writers can describe that they want emphasized words, > chapters, sections, quotations, and the appearance of those is designed b= y > people who know about how to do that. > > The software was commercially available on UNIX and other systems for > some time from a company called Unilogic, later Scribe Systems, There is a long (and somewhat nasty history history here). Mike Shamus was a one-time CMU CS prof. He created Unilogic and arranged for the IP to be transferred to him. They had a transpiler that converted 'compatible BLISS' (*a.k.a*. Vax Bliss) to other languages. I believe that a flavor of Pascal, Ada and C were possible outputs. I'm not sure of the provenance of the transpiler. Contemporary with Scribe was the PQCC project - Product Quality Compiler Compiler, that Wulf and his students were working. That work forked Tartan labs around the same time as Unilogic and I know transpilers had been part of the original work, but I never closed the loop. To be honest they had to have been related in some manner, but that all happened after I had left. At that point, Scribe had been converted from the original PDP-10 version to compatible BLISS on VAX/VMS. Unilogic sold versions of Scribe for TOPS, Vax both VMS and Unix, Sun, Apollo and I believe a number of other systems (maybe HP and AIX). The sad part is that history seems to have lost both Scribe and the associated transpiler (if anyone knows otherwise, I'd love to hear something). > but it didn=E2=80=99t survive in the marketplace. Wordstar and Microsoft = Word came > along on the desktop, and academics didn=E2=80=99t like paying for it. > +1 and for many documents (like business letters), I always found Scribe easier - but maybe that's because I grew up the idea of an editor and *docu= ment compiler* (roff and friends).. > > Reid=E2=80=99s idea of how the work should be distributed was swept aside= by > publishing tools that writers could use to do passable documents but > not beautiful ones. Amen In real publishing, the division still exists: lots of > writing in, say, Microsoft Word that is reworked in publishing software > like Quark or InDesign for actual printing. > To give ex-CMU and UCB grad, Ken Keller credit. He tried to bridge that with his FrameMaker program (which I think Adobe still owns - I have not seen much about it in few years and have lost track of Keller). IIRC Ken's program could take a Scribe/LaTex style sheets also. But FrameMaker (like Scribe) was expensive and originally required a UNIX box with 32-bit linear addressing to compile, so it was fairly late to the PC. I never really learned it although Ken gave me a copy early on to play with. IIRC our doc folks at Stellar used it (whereas the Masscomp/ORA folks of the time were strictly roff as previously discussed). > But one could argue that Scribe sort of exists in a way, in LaTeX. My > understanding is that Leslie Lamport started LaTex as exactly a way > to bring Scribe=E2=80=99s ideas to producing TeX documents, and the basic > LaTeX structure looks a lot like Scribe. > Indeed - that is what I have been told. I am under the impression that early on when Brian started as a Stanford Prof, he had difficulty getting a use license from Unilogic even though he was the original author. That churn supposedly somehow influenced Leslie WRT to the creation of LaTex to make Tex more accessible. > > Because you can dive into TeX to tweak all the tiny details, and > because LaTeX packages work at all different levels of abstraction, > it=E2=80=99s sometimes hard to see the separation there, especially when > you=E2=80=99re fighting with LaTeX to submit a paper. But it=E2=80=99s th= e Scribe > idea at the core. > +1 FWIW I was back at CMU a couple of winters ago for the annual 'Build-18' maker event. I was chatting with some folks about a few of the cool things we had worked on in the 70's and which ones had lasted, like the PQCC, the speech recognition work, Mach, Andrew *et al*. At that time, I was told then that there was a linux x86 binary for Scribe still floating around and some people still used it for some specific documents. I asked if I could get a copy to play with and they told me they would try to find it, but that was right before Covidtide. It's been crickets since I inquired. I'll see if I can find out more. --000000000000df5dc805d577e6c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
below.... [exc= ellent job -- you wrote what I had planned -- few tweeks/color added below]= .

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:31 PM Win Treese <treese@acm.org> wrote:
<= /div>
Scribe was in the mix after troff and TeX.
Fun fact, I believe that bwk was Brian= 9;s thesis committee
=C2=A0
= Brian Reid=E2=80=99s observation was that writers should be writ= ing, and publishing professionals should design how documents lo= ok.
It was even more important= than that.=C2=A0 Brian Reid observed that most documents looked lik= e their brethren. =C2=A0 For instance, the Unix doc looks like BTL TM forma= t. =C2=A0Each university tends to= have a 'style' for their thesis [-me 'knows' how to genera= te UCB thesis format].=C2=A0 Office correspondence (letters, memo for file)= have a certain look. =C2=A0 =C2=A0So he wants to separate=C2=A0the descrip= tion of the output (i.e. a template) for a document and not make the per= son that did want (need too) think about the output, just do their thing (a= s you said -- let writer's write).


=C2=A0
Writers can describe that they want emph= asized words,
chapters, sections, quotations, and the appearance of those is designed by<= br> people who know about how to do that.

The software was commercially available on UNIX and other systems for
some time from a company called Unilogic, later Scribe Systems,
There is a long (and somewhat nasty histor= y history here).=C2=A0 Mike Shamus was a one-time CMU CS prof. =C2=A0 He cr= eated Unilogic and arranged for the IP to be transferred to him. =C2=A0 Th= ey had a transpiler that converted 'compatible BLISS' (a.k.a= . Vax Bliss) to other languages.=C2=A0 I believe that a flavor of Pascal, A= da and C were possible outputs. =C2=A0 I'm not sure of the provenance o= f the transpiler. =C2=A0 Contemporary with Scribe was the PQCC project - Pr= oduct Quality Compiler Compiler, that Wulf and his students were working.= =C2=A0 That work forked Tartan labs around the same time as Unilogic and I = know transpilers had been part of the original work,=C2=A0but I never close= d the loop.=C2=A0 To be honest they had to have been related in some=C2=A0m= anner,=C2=A0but that all happened after I had left.

At that point,= Scribe had been converted from the original PDP-10 version to compatible B= LISS on VAX/VMS. =C2=A0 Unilogic sold versions of Scribe for TOPS, Vax both= VMS and Unix, Sun, Apollo and I believe a number of other systems (maybe H= P and AIX). =C2=A0The sad part is= that history seems to have lost both Scribe and the associated=C2=A0transpiler (if anyone knows otherwise, I'd love to hear something).
<= /div>
=C2=A0
but it didn=E2=80=99= t survive in the marketplace. Wordstar and Microsoft Word came
along on the desktop, and academics didn=E2=80=99t like paying for it.
<= /blockquote>
+1 =C2=A0and for many documents (lik= e business letters), I always found Scribe easier - but maybe that's be= cause I grew up the idea of an editor and document compiler (= roff and friends)..

Reid=E2=80=99s idea of how the work should be distributed was swept aside b= y
publishing tools that writers could use to do passable documents but
not beautiful ones.
Amen=

In real publishing, the division still exi= sts: lots of
writing in, say, Microsoft Word that is reworked in publishing software
like Quark or InDesign for actual printing.
To give ex-CMU and UCB grad, Ken Keller credit. He tried to br= idge that with his FrameMaker program (which I think Adobe still owns - I h= ave not seen much about it in few=C2=A0years and have lost track of Keller)= .=C2=A0 IIRC Ken's program could take a Scribe/LaTex style sheets also.= =C2=A0 But FrameMaker (like Scribe) was expensive and originally required a= UNIX box with 32-bit linear addressing to compile, so it was fairly late t= o the PC.=C2=A0 I never really learned it although =C2=A0Ken gave me a copy= early on to play with.=C2=A0 IIRC our doc folks at Stellar used it (wherea= s the Masscomp/ORA folks of the time were strictly=C2=A0roff as previously = discussed).=C2=A0



But one could argue that Scribe sort of exists in a way, in LaTeX. My
understanding is that Leslie Lamport started LaTex as exactly a way
to bring Scribe=E2=80=99s ideas to producing TeX documents, and the basic LaTeX structure looks a lot like Scribe.
Indeed - that is what I have been told.=C2=A0 I am under t= he impression that early on when Brian started as a Stanford Prof, he had d= ifficulty getting a use license from Unilogic even though he was the origin= al author.=C2=A0 That=C2=A0churn supposedly somehow influenced Leslie WRT t= o the creation of LaTex to make Tex more accessible.=C2=A0

=
=C2=A0

Because you can dive into TeX to tweak all the tiny details, and
because LaTeX packages work at all different levels of abstraction,
it=E2=80=99s sometimes hard to see the separation there, especially when you=E2=80=99re fighting with LaTeX to submit a paper. But it=E2=80=99s the = Scribe
idea at the core.
+1 =C2=A0

FWIW I was back at CMU a co= uple of winters ago for the annual=C2=A0'Build-18' maker event.=C2= =A0 I was chatting with some folks about a few of the cool things we had wo= rked on in the =C2=A070's and which ones had lasted,=C2=A0like the PQCC= , the speech recognition work,=C2=A0Mach, Andrew et al.=C2=A0 At tha= t time, I was told then that there was a linux x86 binary for Scribe still = floating around and some people still used it for some=C2=A0specific docume= nts.=C2=A0 I asked if I could get a copy to play with and they told me they= would try to find it, but that was right before Covidtide.=C2=A0 It's = been crickets since I inquired.=C2=A0 I'll see if I can find out more.= =C2=A0
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