From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18258 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2023 03:06:16 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jun 2023 03:06:16 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78F440C28; Tue, 13 Jun 2023 13:06:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498BF402E0 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2023 13:06:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-bcd6c9948ebso1169549276.1 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2023 20:06:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1686625563; x=1689217563; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=aDzf6v3aW4zK4u29tNUE+EZItqqz5xQMq04K3Dj34s8=; b=Fc9d60cQSAtJrb5YT11PpI23gJDwO+FGtVlHc2y/FEZUQgbIlsHIjqmoJPV4sHgNSa 5Q3ke7XZ5ydbFCfaSLb3riN/pIgTSyXqZgdaJUzkiLXdMDLPlO7JKQ6NKmjPsq2kx37t TtRa9GevwTc3RUPyuXzewFdkYaPzfLXipZ8ac= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1686625563; x=1689217563; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=aDzf6v3aW4zK4u29tNUE+EZItqqz5xQMq04K3Dj34s8=; b=lw5snHMwygu+NujgXcI+eOoIyOA7dtMrI58u/rnV1gyArdMgPtapmEoHztodDkc4yY 0Q3tYBc68x4KMkvPBpkesqaZiVGdl4d6cQQtKUo757cQADay9+3Z+CYWk3sOMuBN390D 5O04rauEi6bnGYGBNnLNltcAibXvniOe0lLr6UC11woPpGyxnBFzyzxSiIPxYQfrV9jo sLIZfWF1+OIklNM1SR3iZkTHL5H3bcr0nhtcG+wxMX+YZxVZLU76e2TEs1eEU4u1a8Bn aoD3OM9xnODn8dRiDO7pJ7oEOv8Do+8S38R3p72NQr1dnjqu6MljEaShWDqFVi/MQLKB 3OpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDyoSAn3SXqOEkGzlAfb0DuOQuOc0oo/sXSo1YG0gdjI/KYZrh6S 7UG2w3Ixb0HcU2PvhANa34tX2KPYtcU+/p06AlEmbs6A8NFP7Xzdp9x01A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5DbOFjdZ2ILt8kMC0QROuHqwqu4KH1e8eyhi4/tA219nneXmcCgvizJowhzujOHWC1TmELJe4HooLc7c7+Jro= X-Received: by 2002:a25:34c9:0:b0:bc6:1cac:a47 with SMTP id b192-20020a2534c9000000b00bc61cac0a47mr413970yba.50.1686625563209; Mon, 12 Jun 2023 20:06:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230612213912.mywv5znz66pk3n5q@illithid> <20230612235708.GI83871@eureka.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20230612235708.GI83871@eureka.lemis.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 23:05:37 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000908a3b05fdfa1da9" Message-ID-Hash: DY53ECWRCYF254FUNGLMCTR6Q3RWUPVS X-Message-ID-Hash: DY53ECWRCYF254FUNGLMCTR6Q3RWUPVS X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: Weedhopper? (was: crt0 -- what's in that name?) List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000908a3b05fdfa1da9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 7:57=E2=80=AFPM Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 12 June 2023 at 18:39:32 -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 5:39=E2=80=AFPM G. Branden Robinson < > g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> It's an ill wind that blows a Fortran runtime using the same conventio= n. > > > > Be careful there, weedhopper ... > > Now there's a word I have never heard before. Neither have my > dictionaries, and Google gets sidetracked. What's the meaning and the > background? > I was making a joke from those times -- sorry it fell flat [The Kung Fu series that airs from 1972 to 1975, a young character is taught by an old blind master, who he called "grasshopper."] > > On the other hand, I have heard of BSS and BES. It was in the DDP-516 (b= asis > for the IMP) assembler. Is that how it found its way into Unix? > As I said, it was originally from the United Aircraft assembler and released to the IBM SHARE community in the late 1950s, which Doug verified. As Paul said, in those days, you did not want to waste cycles setting up memory if you did not need to, and security was not an issue, so have the assembler/compiler reserve "block common" after it loaded the code and initialized data. To younger programmers, these machines (including the variable S/360) do not have a stack. They used it as a calling convention that saves things in what IBM called the "push down save area." Like Paul, while I learned assembler first on the S/360, I don't remember if a BAL for TSS/360 directive called BSS, but I certainly remember being taught about the idea of Block Storage and having it drilled into my brain by my Kung Fu master at the time, Don Gregg. I've now forgotten what it did or the special rules for it. Still, I do remember that the APL system had to be careful about what was in what 'SECT' and, early on, screwing something up in one of my first assembler tweaks of the APL system and getting an 'education' about the errors of my way by my master - thus being taught the differences.=F0=9F=98=89 Clem =E1=90=A7 --000000000000908a3b05fdfa1da9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 7:57= =E2=80=AFPM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
On Monday, 12 June 2023 at 18:39:32 -0400, Clem Cole wrote= :
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 5:39=E2=80=AFPM G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robin= son@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's an ill wind that blows a Fortran runtime using the same c= onvention.
>
> Be careful there, weedhopper ...

Now there's a word I have never heard before.=C2=A0 Neither have my
dictionaries, and Google gets sidetracked.=C2=A0 What's the meaning and= the
background?

I was making a joke from thos= e times -- sorry it fell flat [The Kung Fu series that airs from 1972 to 19= 75, a young character is taught by an old blind master, who he called "= ;grasshopper."]

On the other hand, I have heard of BSS and BES.=C2=A0 It was in the DDP-516= (basis for the IMP) assembler.=C2=A0 Is that how it found its w= ay into Unix?
As I said, it = was originally from the United Aircraft assembler and released to the IBM S= HARE community in the late 1950s, which Doug verified.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As Paul = said, in those days, you did not want to waste cycles setting up memory if = you did not need to, and security was not an issue, so have the assembler/c= ompiler reserve "block common"=C2=A0 after=C2=A0it loaded the cod= e and initialized data.=C2=A0 To younger programmers,=C2=A0 these machines = (including the variable S/360) do not have a stack. They used it as a calli= ng convention that saves things in what IBM called the "push down save= area."=C2=A0

Like Pa= ul, while I learned assembler first on the S/360, I don't remember if a= BAL for TSS/360 directive called BSS, but I certainly remember being taugh= t about the idea of Block Storage and having it drilled into my brain by my= Kung Fu master at the time, Don Gregg.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I've now forgotten = what it did or the special rules for it. Still, I do remember that the APL = system had to be careful about what was in what 'SECT' and, early o= n, screwing something up in one of my first assembler tweaks of the APL sys= tem and getting an 'education' about the errors of my way by my mas= ter - thus being taught the differences.=F0=9F=98=89
<= br>
Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7 --000000000000908a3b05fdfa1da9--