From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 8784 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2022 16:06:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jan 2022 16:06:44 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A9A8F9D011; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:06:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A0829CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:06:40 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="rTmDM8lh"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EBBC89CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:06:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f179.google.com (mail-qt1-f179.google.com [209.85.160.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B09E9C78F for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:06:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f179.google.com with SMTP id f17so7328363qtf.8 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:06:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=04h82Li+A3KIbWJXR0nc1qkt7d6cZnotQC7d+uniGnc=; b=rTmDM8lhwCmCQIH9/Ma2a/YWUGfDIT6NnYLS5Bw6SKNEwxl835d4B+9p9CkJUWF6sQ 2EJFBA2+KWzmZqkYVQfvF6fTNxQyMWR2YXS/2nHH61d8hWqXb9BuXZHUrLe8jSwEiKhk TwkFJcbj58x327YoqIWLwH5OLlkq3GDNEh6Ac= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=04h82Li+A3KIbWJXR0nc1qkt7d6cZnotQC7d+uniGnc=; b=MXK+22kYcjK02zPRZHFyhvEIeaFnfF4arxjSJgD90zPYMUlFH+l/eFEiBeKgRh36bV iJMOHdQPomwV9yB/NZ28Isd97FmMXV+OhSp05HihcgTMD8edzvf2cnxSjO0P1pxcZmbJ z52rveZldaQdGLd8AhvpPW01zqrOQuwH6c73c+0NDWkZ3IFRsuFkgunMjTQEi+rMVj3g Fs1TNCnH/LMMokjYPYwMEnU7CBntFX/RfoU77lBbLICpAFBgg6e1naMJzkCIQZLrrIAR t177KrjAfHtSB1dWoKV5YCd6K6bJpe+VENl7omarvBayjKqcRdSOncT/8AJotLL5spxw D5pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322xBI93Qk1ZfmzkNwYLPG2KrqkY+ZVvnZ/Ov4SHtKc6uREAD0a cmb9au8HZVKD1jhiOxWKBpxuWHEcJI7NLzPdOS1PkQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRlHR7axeQ2WiLIILi4i1jQGVDTVm6140RA14kD6Bs02w2D4l3OqEP3tFGRDHkIfw7/hkD7HAy3BPO1e5K+LI= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4b58:: with SMTP id e24mr4118466qts.112.1642089997360; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:06:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 11:06:11 -0500 Message-ID: To: "John P. Linderman" Subject: Re: [COFF] Scribe (Typesetting System) and Unix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5793210296720320953==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============5793210296720320953== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb78de05d578dea6" --000000000000fb78de05d578dea6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:08 AM John P. Linderman wrote: > Many of us who wrote articles for the Bell System Technical Journal would > disagree. The BSTJ publishers could transform something that made sense > when viewed as troff output into unintelligible gibberish. You cannot split > a UNIX command line into multiple lines just because it "looks better". > Sometimes format really matters. > I think that is true for any scheme -- professionals and editors need to work together. That's what Jon was suggesting. When they don't have shared vocabulary/goals - bad things can happen. FWIW: I can not speak for him directly as I never had this conversation with him (Win might have), but from what I knew/know of Brian Ried I think he might agree with what I'm suggesting. IMO, *there will always be cases like the one that you described*. This is not particular to any document compiler system. The question is how to bring the two sides together and who has the high order bit? My complaint with Word and the like, is that the 'control' is hidden. It's $%^& magic -- why is it indenting here? Hey I did not tell it to make it go italics ... Like Jon and Larry, I'm a big roff fan and still use it. But to give Brian his due, his style sheets were in ASCII and what was happening on the page was fairly easy to deduce. That said, I never used Scribe for anything large (like a book), which I can say I have done with troff. In the late 1970s, I did use Scribe for some papers and found it quite easy to use. Since that time, as a co-author I've also tried the same with LaTex and/or Word and found both difficult. When I have the lead and if I can, I'll use troff -ms with a few extra Masscomp macros (that ORA used to pass on too -- the Steve Talbot extensions for lists in particular). So from my professional experience, it has been mostly with troff, my use of Scribe was short lived. I'm pretty sure tht Keller tried to make creating books easier in FrameMaker, as that was one of his target users. But again I only played with it, never really had to rely on it for anything. --000000000000fb78de05d578dea6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On T= hu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:08 AM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Many of us who wrote = articles for the Bell System Technical Journal would disagree. The BSTJ =C2=A0publisher= s could transform something that made sense when viewed as troff output int= o unintelligible gibberish. You cannot split a UNIX command line into multi= ple lines just because it "looks better". Sometimes format really= matters.
I think that is tr= ue for any scheme -- professionals and editors need to work together.=C2=A0= That's what Jon was suggesting.=C2=A0 When they don't have shared = vocabulary/goals - =C2=A0bad things can happen. =C2=A0 FWIW: I can not spea= k for him directly as I never had this conversation with him (Win might hav= e), but from what I knew/know of Brian Ried I think he might agree with wha= t I'm suggesting.=C2=A0 IMO, there will always be cases like the = one that you=C2=A0described.=C2=A0 This is not particular to any do= cument compiler system. =C2=A0 The question is how to bring the two sides t= ogether and who has the high order bit? =C2=A0=C2=A0

M= y complaint with Word and the like, is that the 'control' is hidden= .=C2=A0 It's $%^& magic -- why is it indenting here?=C2=A0 Hey I di= d not tell it to make it go italics ...

Like Jon and L= arry, I'm a big roff fan and still use it.=C2=A0 But to give Brian his = due, his style sheets=C2=A0were in ASCII and what was happening on the page= was fairly easy to deduce.=C2=A0 That said, I never used Scribe for anythi= ng large (like a book), which I can say I have done with troff.=C2=A0 In th= e late 1970s, I did use Scribe for some papers and found it quite easy to u= se.=C2=A0 Since that time, as a co-author I've also tried the same with= LaTex and/or Word and found both difficult.=C2=A0 When I have the lead and= if I can, I'll use troff -ms with a few extra Masscomp macros (that OR= A used to pass on too -- the Steve Talbot extensions for lists in particula= r).

So from my professional experience, it has been mo= stly with troff, my use of Scribe was short lived.

I&#= 39;m pretty sure tht Keller tried to make creating books easier in FrameMak= er, as that was one of his target users.=C2=A0 But again I only played with= it, never really had to rely on it for anything.
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