From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11225 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2021 15:07:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 15 Jul 2021 15:07:46 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E82C59C0FE; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 01:07:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BDE95038; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 01:07:40 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="aRjcoL+U"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D83699B9C2; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 01:07:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f54.google.com (mail-qv1-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E2FA94566 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 01:07:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f54.google.com with SMTP id h18so2994806qve.1 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:07:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rJ/vXIEId0qIui/4VXpuko/nc/HXpAjFO82rtyTX1OQ=; b=aRjcoL+U4JoRlaMD5EXxg9zqaemISyrKpJ+GBf6/Ctr1Ayv9u8utsUKJc9sUCsNxvC 0Jzhc+zqDELGfgVBbpMM903LpC+P50Xx3LQ9d2j81AC9flrmByPVPx39UyFE3E012j5o g7EB/H6vBgrxb9eBrCN4MNedWzHeKV/5ss69o= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rJ/vXIEId0qIui/4VXpuko/nc/HXpAjFO82rtyTX1OQ=; b=t568Tq1DeZdRQUI5u//JLH5RdCKaeRx5X4xN8B+tz5wPnLMj7ycj1lSLgYHcfMeo4l /hMzjnTMHyiOvBduwTyxEhLtR2mbKBpPm4S7TqXtv7Sk0n5LUjDX1v/W38HCQH4PAQ9n DrmxGyq7psuzzKHPyWVI98g059lwf78maQeoKLNWs3/SImltMEqGLyUsIcLlWRXNmRmX tizElmsGsUVIJrHAkeV6Q0rNNNe5pDQczemI1iFT8sza5KqqyVZ0vBV8uNFH4ue+QDbr QKGvL3+BRRDHFVG5XULPD3JsDSHd3MrxtRLZLOoGbY9vkwBzOG//JzbxkcdDENKCR+RI defw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5312Nglv4l92gpbGpHwxwFE2V3fhQA40DqETgviDllZ2Zqy3457F bnCWHQWp3FIEI+rR+5NxyVOWuDw3dab4IZ+5slmjRQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzAPKATmp/O7BRbWjXzdIM7DXpMRubyZNqW4T7e8rmgQTLv6LvDTvG4ewCGgSRn5cZgDTnHsPEbeCF9xdZxVZs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:dce:: with SMTP id 14mr4862735qvt.40.1626361656257; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:07:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 11:07:10 -0400 Message-ID: To: Douglas McIlroy Subject: Re: [COFF] [TUHS] 386BSD released X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers , TUHS main list Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3320984343346427871==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============3320984343346427871== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cc43c905c72ad4a5" --000000000000cc43c905c72ad4a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Doug. On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 10:22 PM Douglas McIlroy < douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > The open source movement was a revival of the old days of SHARE and other > user groups. > Amen, my basic point, although I was also trying to pointing at that these user groups got started b*ecause the vendors gave the sources to their products out.* We SHARED patches and features. DECUS started out the same way. For instance, many/most PDP-10 OS's used the DEC compilers and often even found a way to run TOPS-10 binaries by emulating the UUOs. The IBM/360 world worked pretty much the same way. My own experience was that the compilers (e.g WATFIV-FTNG-ALGOLW-PL/1) and language interpreters (APL-Snolbol) for the TSS and MTS had been 'ported' from the IBM-supplied OS [my own first job was doing just that]. The same story was true for the PDP-8 with DOS-8/TSS-8 and the like. By the time of the PDP-11, while some of the DEC source code was available (such as the Fortran-IV for RT-11/RSX), since it took at PDP-10/BLISS to support it, DEC had it its protection - so moving it/stealing it - would have been harder. By the time of the VAX, DEC was charging a lot of money of SW and it was actually a revenue stream, so they keep a lot more locked up and had started to do the same with PDP-10 world. So, the available/unavailable source issue came when things started to get closed up, which really started with the rise of the SW industry and making revenue with the use of your SW. OEMs and IVSs started to be a lot less willing to reveal what they thought was their 'special sauce.' Some/many end-users started to balk. RMS just took it to a new level - just look at how he reacted to Symbolics being closed source :-) The question that used to come up (and still does not an extent) is how are the engineers and teams of people that developed the SW going to be paid/renumerated for their work? The RMS/GNU answer had been service revenue [and living like a student in a rent-controlled APT in Central Sq]. What has happened for most of the biggest FOSS projects, the salaries are paid for firms like my own that pay developers to work on the SW and most FOSS projects die when the developer/maintainer is unable to continue (if not just gets bored). In fact, [I can not say I personally know this - but have read internal memos that make the claim], Intel pays for more Linux developers and now LLVM developers than any firm. What's interesting is that Intel does not really directly sell its HW product to end-users. We sell to others than use our chips to make their products. We have finally moved to the support model for the compilers (I've personally been fighting that battle for 15 years). So back to my basic point ... while giving the *behavior* a name, the *idea *of "Open Source" is really not anything new. While it may be new in their lifetime/experience, it is frankly at minimum a sad, if not outright disingenuous, statement for the people to try to imply otherwise because they are unwilling to look back into history and understand, much less accept it as a fact. Trying to rewrite history is just not pretty to witness. And I am pleased to see that a few folks (like Larry) that have lived a little both times have tried to pass the torch with more complete history. Clem. =E1=90=A7 --000000000000cc43c905c72ad4a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank=C2=A0you= , Doug.

= On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 10:22 PM Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
=
The open source movement was a revival of the old days of SHAR= E and other
user groups.
Amen, = my basic point, although I was also trying to pointing at that these user g= roups got started because the vendors gave the sources to their products= out.=C2=A0 We SHARED patches and features. DECUS started out the same = way.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For instance, many/most PDP-10 OS's used the DEC compi= lers and often even found a way to run TOPS-10 binaries by emulating the UU= Os.=C2=A0 The IBM/360 world worked pretty much the same way.=C2=A0 My own e= xperience was that the compilers (e.g WATFIV-FTNG-ALGOLW-PL/1) and language= interpreters (APL-Snolbol) for the TSS and MTS had been 'ported' f= rom the IBM-supplied OS [my own first job was doing just that].=C2=A0

The same story was true for the PDP-8 with DOS= -8/TSS-8 and the like. By the time of the PDP-11, while some of the DEC sou= rce code was available=C2=A0(such as the Fortran-IV for RT-11/RSX), since i= t took at PDP-10/BLISS to support it, DEC had it its protection - so moving= it/stealing it - would have been harder.=C2=A0 By the time of the VAX, DEC= was charging a lot of money of SW and it was actually a revenue stream, so= they keep a lot more locked up and had=C2=A0started to do the same with PD= P-10 world.

=
So, the available/unavailable= source issue came when things started to get closed up, which really start= ed with the rise of the SW industry and making revenue with the use of your= SW.=C2=A0 =C2=A0OEMs and IVSs started to be a lot less willing to reveal w= hat they thought was their 'special sauce.'=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some/many = end-users started to balk.=C2=A0 =C2=A0RMS just took it to a new level - ju= st look at how he reacted to Symbolics being closed source :-)

The question that used to come up (and still does not= an extent) is how are the engineers and teams of people that developed the= SW going to be paid/renumerated for their work?=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RMS/GNU an= swer had been service revenue [and living like a student in a rent-controll= ed APT in Central=C2=A0Sq].=C2=A0 What has happened for most of the biggest= FOSS projects, the salaries are paid for firms like my own that pay develo= pers to work on the SW and most FOSS projects die when the developer/mainta= iner is unable to continue (if not just gets bored).

In fact, [I can not say I personally know this - but have read= internal memos that make the claim], Intel pays for more Linux developers = and now LLVM developers than any firm.=C2=A0 What's interesting is that= Intel does not really directly sell its HW product to end-users.=C2=A0 We = sell to others than use our chips to make their products.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We ha= ve finally moved to the support model for the compilers (I've personall= y been fighting that battle for 15 years).

So back to my basic point ... while giving the behavior a n= ame, the idea of "Open Source" is really not anythi= ng new.=C2=A0 While it may be new in their lifetime/experience,= =C2=A0it is=C2=A0frankly at minimum a sad, if not outright disingenuous, st= atement for the people to try to imply otherwise because they are unwilling= to look back into=C2=A0history and understand, much less accept it as a fa= ct.=C2=A0=C2= =A0Trying to rewrite history is just not pretty to witness.=C2=A0 And I= am pleased to=C2=A0see that a few folks (like Larry) that have lived a lit= tle both times have tried to pass the torch with more complete history.

<= span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri= f">Clem.

= =C2=A0
3D""<= font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7
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