From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 28022 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2021 18:29:16 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 14 Jul 2021 18:29:16 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EC75C9C0D9; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 04:29:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5103A95038; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 04:29:07 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="bKovXWB/"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 94D3195038; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 04:29:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f178.google.com (mail-qt1-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F205194566 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 04:29:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f178.google.com with SMTP id x24so2543885qts.11 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:29:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Apnv0XqMqiyg+l1L4Ng1DLCCSQWMB91YEJOlqrR3AT0=; b=bKovXWB/V8lkjpy53rsJUZ1CdSTvi1dC9L6pgt/cfEAm5430zJKhMuEKkjiDcgX2rB CAD5nrV3Si7+GqbYnUsy8uVdRBlnMMOlY7FqwT/mRVyv6HMvGH2I9BMx5g07mlsR2nRX PZp6IJEFcHsbNssCsWhFySNVjM5EoFudNdyTk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Apnv0XqMqiyg+l1L4Ng1DLCCSQWMB91YEJOlqrR3AT0=; b=XnOmVxUKUqziWLOogUKEg5xHqnU3N4U25d6o614Y5CpscBeM51BhuDUZIEXpnGLnXe qIjxySIsTU6u7YwOdO9E3AOfnzYJOxDIoTI/Jn0t0l4ZrO2eIWBVcjmHzWlE4Ay4Uw2M kXOiDOVfY7T0htY1n5hbeiXiwhRpD/rE+3JT7BjPvePKiHGSlKuZPVU6IQA0p6/obHl1 cZanVHrQiQMAFHIDt+l6IuQm+FGXAzHadyMQ1nYSwAmyg1np1QFgdwNzHu4OYIFlE4o9 WfyemQniaSINlhxHX31O1Jlw6mG7hvCtG8uHSjPoKwr3fcYdUqGDGJns7JLHLJQ35Ek/ e//g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532s1vMyh6J7hlTU+c1ZZbe9SDJ4sbKKLhhb7rdQxrWYmIgPcZHF sJ8bBUimGPNbFZnBxzHbN/ohOoBZ7ZvY0EDk1NRQYA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw9Vtj39mIVS/and9o3tI59VL0Re5crPtSr+09QOUW+xdvGPh8XJm8rfx+5IArxJh9MoNZAseKNQ2BTf72Bxak= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:118b:: with SMTP id m11mr10627380qtk.4.1626287343817; Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:29:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <213a4c11-3ab2-4b4a-8d6b-b52105a19711@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:28:37 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" Subject: Re: [COFF] [TUHS] 386BSD released X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5250865111923682140==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============5250865111923682140== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e6e2205c7198751" --0000000000006e6e2205c7198751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 1:40 PM Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote: > On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 11:01:58AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > By formal definition, the tarball and the rest of UNIX from Research is > and > > always has been, '*Open Source*' in the sources were available. *But > they > > were licensed*. This was fairly typical of much early software BTW. T= he > > binary nature only came about with the minicomputers. > Please don't go here (again). Yes, it has been trademarked, but the official trademarked term is different from reality --> just like the guy that got a copyright for email and claims to have invented it. People were 'open sourcing' software before you and I were born. They just did not have a name for it - thank you. The real 'father' of Open Source as we think of it today was Prof Don Pederson and his Industrial Liaison Office (ILO) of the EE Dept of UCB in the late 1960s -- long before rms, et al. As 'dop' used to say, I give everything away because then I go in the back door, not the front door like a salesman. MIT/CMU/Stanford et al we often licensing their work. In many ways, CMU and Stanford were two of the worst. The ILO gave away all its products. We would not have the current electronics industry without the work dop and his students produced. As I have also pointed in other email tapes like the original, '1BSD' was managed and distributed by the ILO because dop had set of the infrastructure 10-15 years earlier to send out mag tapes and other IP to 'interested parties.' Yes, computer networks changed the distribution and access medium, but please refrain from trying to rewrite history. The GNU project and FOSS movement that was created took the idea and advanced it, making use of better ways of communicating the ideas, removing the academic clubiness as Larry suggested. Larry is right, if you were a peer organization or maybe a patron of same, getting source was possible. As rms noted, at some point the sources to things go harder and harder to get access. ITS, WAITS, and even CTSS were all written at a time when you go from IBM and DEC their sources - typically on 7 or 9 track mag-tape and were usually available on microfiche. You also got the circuit schematics too. Local modifications to both HW and SW were normal. But starting with the Minis this began to change and it started to get harder and harder. SW started being a revenue source for those companies -- DEC in particular, so they started to be hold back the sources. The rest is history... Folks like rms objected because the behavior they were used to had changed and he and people like him, could do nothing about it. So he created the Gnu project to compete with those commercial products. But just like have been getting 'email' since the late 1960s/early 1970s on my computers, it was not named. Someone body claimed the name later. But the function was old. The same is for sharing software written and given away, now we have a name and a way to describe the behavior. Cheers Clem =E1=90=A7 --0000000000006e6e2205c7198751 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 1:40= PM Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu= > wrote:
= On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 11:01:58AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> By formal definition, the tarball and the rest of UNIX from Research i= s and
> always has been, '*Open Source*' in the sources were available= .=C2=A0 *But they
> were licensed*.=C2=A0 This was fairly typical of much early software B= TW.=C2=A0 The
> binary nature only came about with the minicomputers.
=
Please don't go here (again).=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yes, it h= as been trademarked, but the=C2=A0official trademarked term is different fr= om reality --> just like the guy that got a copyright for email and clai= ms to have invented it.=C2=A0 People were 'open sourcing' software = before you and I were born.=C2=A0 They just did not have a name for it - th= ank you.

The real 'fathe= r' of Open Source as we think=C2=A0of it today was Prof Don Pederson an= d his Industrial Liaison=C2=A0Office (ILO) of the EE Dept of UCB in the lat= e 1960s -- long before rms, et al.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As 'dop' used to say= , I give everything=C2=A0away because then I go in the back door, not the f= ront door like a salesman.=C2=A0 =C2=A0MIT/CMU/Stanford et al we often lice= nsing their work.=C2=A0 In many ways, CMU and Stanford were two of the wors= t.=C2=A0 The ILO gave away all its products.=C2=A0 We would not have the cu= rrent electronics industry without the work dop and his students produced.= =C2=A0 As I have also pointed=C2=A0in other=C2=A0email tapes like the origi= nal, '1BSD' was managed and distributed by the ILO because dop had = set of the infrastructure 10-15 years earlier to send out mag tapes and oth= er IP to 'interested parties.'

Yes, computer networks changed the distribution and access mediu= m, but please refrain from trying to rewrite history.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The GNU p= roject and FOSS movement that was created took the idea and advanced it, ma= king use of better ways of communicating the ideas, removing the academic c= lubiness as Larry suggested.=C2=A0 Larry is right, if you were a peer organ= ization or maybe a patron of same, getting source was possible.

As rms noted, at some point the sources to things g= o harder and harder to get access.=C2=A0 =C2=A0ITS, WAITS, and even CTSS we= re all written at a time when you go from IBM and DEC their sources - typic= ally on=C2=A0 7 or 9 track mag-tape and were usually available on microfich= e.=C2=A0 =C2=A0You also got the circuit schematics too.=C2=A0 Local modific= ations to both HW and SW were normal.

But=C2=A0startin= g with the Minis this began to change and it started to get harder and hard= er.=C2=A0 SW started being a revenue source for those companies -- DEC in p= articular, so they started to be hold back the sources.=C2=A0 The rest is h= istory...=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Folks like rms objected because the behavior they we= re used to had changed and he and people like him, could do nothing about i= t.=C2=A0 So he created the Gnu project to compete with those commercial pro= ducts.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

But just like have been getting &#= 39;email' since the late 1960s/early 1970s on my computers, it was not = named.=C2=A0 Someone body claimed the name later.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But the funct= ion was old.=C2=A0 The same is for sharing software written and given away,= now we have a name and a way to describe the behavior.


Cheers
Clem

<= br>

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