From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18459 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2021 20:32:41 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 15 Jul 2021 20:32:41 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id AF1839C803; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 06:32:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFABA9C81C; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 06:31:18 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="hHOaY9yY"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 37C559C7F0; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 06:30:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f45.google.com (mail-qv1-f45.google.com [209.85.219.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487339CA45 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 06:30:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f45.google.com with SMTP id x6so3505413qvx.4 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 13:30:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9arI7dnYppqtPEAJtQcUhn1IaY+yuMEZkwmycDhBPmc=; b=hHOaY9yYYNNi5+XRW25a0a36/joIsfr8IKreMeNgXeTCXes1ZLnLFU5/cIYLmBKiLL ThJvB3cHkT5gQqUKGgZEhJnGy4qtI6UPb/MeK2SWFPGN4TAe9wm+tSYsGIYYE6iGeGJH IACa77lt9KXUJ19WAoJH9RtmVlS/dvYt2IF04= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9arI7dnYppqtPEAJtQcUhn1IaY+yuMEZkwmycDhBPmc=; b=MUuSJPFhTv7VL9riMMF1d/dL49STZvUuWh4QpsLYkvnlT4JaoUfd+4VHwswo+J9l3K RD4lmegd3/D2sES7P4ONsdJvl3HJSBnvWiBz3dqJ1Q7ng9oPLJsTzQkPCyrAplC/yn7n gefdBLiQ6NQ6VKrGWhdNmMWgxrOP18rsoEv9w119mKnjMDeeuKBvUBCsFaD9gobUD1LS 5YubojGQlskBvkGSLHxX/6FyvjvyuIhMcOa9T62OBeDsund/ggAJzhyrq4aDoCjvp22E gu+fZ4cXmtLEQaoel5EtrM4U9jKxsB3jKtsqCyAaEF8ZZIjoSMnuPDgFE4hadtMf1wOk xGYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531iBOdUC/N3/z5UEN71NhIux7Ap2vG0aFZguDA6Sj30dz7k8Fj/ 6zMN8YfNpnO0TV3TP6BfbOXb8KMYTYnCys60Ld4DbA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxYo7hv2QCSpxelsuCkqrNPuFCWoRw6nQjeqo2Sc7npZ5BTEAP2+HP6SnzNu1MxemyeCNOD1YbBM1o1C2h/FRI= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f6c6:: with SMTP id d6mr6420773qvo.30.1626381041976; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 13:30:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:30:15 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" Subject: Re: [COFF] [TUHS] 386BSD released X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers , TUHS main list , Douglas McIlroy Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7811357340390603140==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============7811357340390603140== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000046da1e05c72f58af" --00000000000046da1e05c72f58af Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 3:33 PM Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote: > > So back to my basic point ... while giving the *behavior* a name, the > *idea > > *of "Open Source" is really not anything new. > > I do think there is something which is radically new --- which is that > it's not a single company publishing all of the source code for a > particular OS, whether it's System/360 or the PDP-8 Disk Operating > System, or whatever. Ted - that *is what* Doug pointed out!!! They did not create anything that was new. SHARED / DECUS / USENIX and the like were providing that exact same function starting in the late 1950s!!! Companies and Universities all pooled their resources to make things better and to get new and improved solutions. Sometimes they started with things that come from the original OEM. Also often they created their own technology and made it available to everyone. Sometime they combine both. And it was a 'bazaar where everyone had access and you chose to use it to not. Sounds pretty familiar, BTW. What >>has<< changed (dramatically) was the *method* and *ability* to *distribute* your work and/or the manner you *obtained* someone else's efforts. Today we download via the Web (much less ftp from a public area), which is much more convenient than becoming a member of an organization and having to obtain (typically for a small $50-$100 trape copying fee) a 9-track distribution tape. But even the concept of 'free' is really not new as I said. Things like UCB's ILO used that model for a long time. MIT, CMU, Stanford, Univerity of Waterloo, Cambridge, et al, just made their work to any interested parties. But due to the new way of being *interconnected *and a *much better distribution scheme* that indeed is a huge feature. But please understand 'open source and collective sharing/working together is not a new thing that just appeared with the Gnu project and was accelerated and taken to a new level with the Linux work. I personally blame esr's book for that beginning of the rewriting of history/kicking the previous generations in the shins, as readers of it, or worse readers of summations of it, miss the big picture instead of the reality of standing on other shoulders. I do want to give create for the cool and important things that have come. I just want to make sure we don't forget the success of the modern world is 100% dependent on two important things: moore's law to make things more economic and the hard work of a lot of people that came before (now and before me for that matter). =E1=90=A7 --00000000000046da1e05c72f58af Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On T= hu, Jul 15, 2021 at 3:33 PM Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
> So back to my= basic point ... while giving the *behavior* a name, the *idea
> *of "Open Source" is really not anything new.
I do think there is something which is radically new --- which is that
it's not a single company publishing all of the source code for a
particular OS, whether it's System/360 or the PDP-8 Disk Operating
System, or whatever.

Ted=C2=A0- that is what Doug pointed=C2=A0out!!!=C2=A0= They did not create anything that was new.=C2=A0 SHARED / DECUS / USENIX a= nd the like were providing that exact same function starting in the late 19= 50s!!!=C2=A0 Companies and Universities all pooled their=C2=A0resources=C2= =A0to make things better and to get new and improved solutions.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Sometimes they started with things that come from the original OEM.=C2= =A0 Also often they created their own technology and made it available to e= veryone.=C2=A0 Sometime they combine both.=C2=A0 And it was a 'bazaar= =C2=A0where everyone had access and you chose to use it to not.=C2=A0 Sound= s pretty familiar, BTW.

<= /div>
What >>has<< changed (dramatica= lly) was the method and=C2=A0ability to distribute your work and/o= r the manner you obtained someone else's efforts.=C2=A0 T= oday we download via the Web (much less ftp from a public area), which is m= uch more convenient=C2=A0than becoming a member of an organization and havi= ng to obtain (typically for a small=C2=A0$50-$100 trape copying fee) a 9-tr= ack distribution=C2=A0tape.=C2=A0 But even the concept of 'free' is= really not new as I said.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Things like UCB's ILO used that = model for a long time.=C2=A0 =C2=A0MIT, CMU, Stanford, Univerity of Waterlo= o, Cambridge, et al, just made their work to any interested parties.=

But due to the new way of being interconnected and a = much better distribution scheme that indeed is a huge feature.=C2= =A0 But please understand 'open source=C2=A0and collective=C2=A0sharing= /working together is not a new=C2=A0thing that just appeared with the Gnu p= roject and was accelerated and taken to a new level with the Linux work.

I personally blame esr's book for that beginning of the rewriting= of history/kicking the=C2=A0previous generations in the shins, as readers = of it, or worse readers of summations of it, miss the big picture instead o= f the reality of standing on other shoulders.

I do want to give cre= ate for the cool and important things that have come.=C2=A0 I just want to = make sure we don't forget the success of the modern world is 100% depen= dent on two important things: moore's law to make things more economic = and the hard work of a lot of people that came before (now and before me fo= r that matter).
3D""=E1=90=A7
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