From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C821927FEF for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2024 21:21:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D4B4374D; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 05:21:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa36.google.com (mail-vk1-xa36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a36]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CF064374D for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 05:20:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa36.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4f524fa193aso738466e0c.0 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2024 12:20:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1723663255; x=1724268055; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3oJvKvAQPVRNx4Zm46CMDB5517LQKmt1ZLVbK0eACmg=; b=g+6eXDokDsl2gpMkuEesprId+BVKZN4MlIEj/kaPYizgUWH+AR5aoY2WLu2nMBztww faPeCI2A+EOG2Iz8OME9/zBJNh62KpmBbgJEku3e7xp05BVL3Q2atrxac3WfXIyabGDD jWKc0CFcQkfTfkLHaP9KZDqCxmJQ8QgboRRzg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1723663255; x=1724268055; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3oJvKvAQPVRNx4Zm46CMDB5517LQKmt1ZLVbK0eACmg=; b=FJ5nYly2kW8TXedeZuUgOIy5Zu2944UjytkqWkjg4DoXJ6Sab1Me89E2OK5OayMTx8 7ldlCSi/3JwLoXUm/SZYptYYqhTSe0xpOw1bw/lW0y3MEa+gHsy5X7CIYQyJQYrLgrvp VRkifki1bgEkNtJRRKlcP7XDB27VNm0LdPK6Lm0DrA0/tX3iSk2eNtHMVfrpXeDuizuT B81aHVUheyt2DpFVi1bZI9i+ZFpDBHSm6f/kBjDxTE3j2trQapCzInRFzTxYWGSsDgyN vy9vJsKlNDpA8J6a973IhvqCw2tKTB+JRQk6Jhm7JbnzsxZ0habU9Q399RwVsBU3F0ik Vbcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzGDFh3Um85LhcxK90fDnRtddII40wLuhAIQuHjvDUWsVDyUisH YY7zeYUWvwKXokhsXUpMHUbriOIz9GoNzl1ri2THVqCfhNWSad/jYNcO0RrkbKMHzEcwhcVotAv nhrG7G7T9yIlnR7G2wTNhRwg/ZYunYjZXyud2ws+sJc6P3n202A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGLOWxpAuxKy8g4gISpt9TbyWWXiZl+GGpx1YRgDo6t+1CwKhBIpPeY8nIAzJT0BQ9dISW2606+idU/I0E/0FU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:2911:b0:4ef:54dd:c806 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4fc590d13c0mr677210e0c.7.1723663255277; Wed, 14 Aug 2024 12:20:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <711f46e8-c277-4d56-975b-cb0b469676e2@nomadlogic.org> <21863.1723450601@cesium.clock.org> <202408131813.47DIDdZp1159124@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 15:20:18 -0400 Message-ID: To: Computer Old Farts Followers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b2eee061fa9a01c" Message-ID-Hash: HSSFMCLMPOE5FEYXSVQDOBAETG4YBEIM X-Message-ID-Hash: HSSFMCLMPOE5FEYXSVQDOBAETG4YBEIM X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: Mailer History -- was Berkeley CSRG Building List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000000b2eee061fa9a01c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matt - I'm going to BCC: TUHS and move this to COFF - since while UNIX was certainly in the mix in all this, it was hardly first or the only place it happenned. On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS w= rote: > On Wednesday, August 14th, 2024 at 9:45 AM, Clem Cole > wrote: > > > > > ... > > The issue came when people started using the mail system as a > programmatic messaging scheme (i.e., fork: some_program | mail user) and > other programs started to parse the output. > > ... > > Mail as IPC...that's what I'm reading from that anyway...now that's an > interesting concept. It's kind of funny the history. ARPANET gives us FTP as a way to exchange files. So, people figure out how to hack the mailer to call FTP to send a file remotely and set up a submit a cron/batch submission, a.k.a RJE. This is encouraged by DARPA because part of the justification of the ARAPNET was to be able to share resources, and this enables supercomputers of the day to be able to provide cycles to DARPA folks who might not have access to larger systems. Also, remember, mailers were local to systems at that point. So someone gets the bright idea to hooker the mailer into this system -- copy the "mail file" and set up a remote job to mail it locally. Let's just say this prioves to be a cool idea and the idea of intersystem email begins in the >>ARPANET<< community. So the idea of taking it to the next level was not that far off. The mailer transports started to offer (limited) features to access services. By the time of Kurt's "delivermail" but he added a feature, thinking it was system logs that allowed specific programs to be called. In fact, it may have been invented elsewhere but before Eric would formalize "vacation" - Jim Kleckner and I hacked together a "awk" script to do that function on the UCB CAD 4.1 systems. I showed it to Sam and a few other people, and I know it went from Cory to Evans fairly quickly. Vacation(1) was written shortly there after to be a bit more flexible than our original script. Did that idea ever grow any significant legs? I guess the word here is significant. It certainly was used where it made sense. In the CAD group, we had simulations that might run for a few days. We used to call the mailer every so often to send status and sometimes do something like a checkpoint. It lead to Sam writing syslogd, particularly after Joy created UNIX domain sockets. But I can say we used it a number of places in systems oriented or long running code before syslogd as a scheme to log errors, deal with stuff. > I can't tell if the general concept is clever or systems abuse, in thos= e > days it seems like it could've gone either way. > > I guess it sorta did survive in the form of automated systems today > expecting specially formatted emails to trigger "stuff" to happen. Exactly. =E1=90=A7 --0000000000000b2eee061fa9a01c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Matt - I'm= going=C2=A0to BCC: TUHS and move this to COFF - since while UNIX was certa= inly in the mix in all this, it was hardly first or the only place it happe= nned.

On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS= <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
On Wednesday, August 14t= h, 2024 at 9:45 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

>
> ...
> The issue came when people started using the mail system as a programm= atic messaging scheme (i.e., fork: some_program | mail user) and other prog= rams started to parse the output.
> ...

Mail as IPC...that's what I'm reading from that anyway...now that&#= 39;s an interesting concept.
It= 's kind of funny the history.=C2=A0 ARPANET gives us FTP as a way to ex= change=C2=A0files.=C2=A0 =C2=A0So, people figure out=C2=A0how to hack the m= ailer to call FTP to send a file remotely and set up a submit a cron/batch = submission, a.k.a RJE.=C2=A0 This is encouraged by DARPA because part of th= e justification of the ARAPNET was to be able to share resources, and this = enables supercomputers of the day to be able to provide cycles to DARPA fol= ks who might not have access to larger systems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, remember,= mailers were local to systems at that point.=C2=A0=C2=A0=


So so= meone gets the bright idea to hooker the mailer into this system -- copy th= e "mail file" and set up a remote job to mail it locally.=C2=A0 L= et's just say this prioves to be a cool idea and the idea of intersyste= m email begins in the >>ARPANET<< community.

So the idea of taking it to th= e next level was not that far off.=C2=A0 The mailer transports started to o= ffer (limited) features to access services. By the time of Kurt's "= ;delivermail" but he added a feature, thinking it was system logs that= allowed specific programs to be called.=C2=A0 =C2=A0In fact, it=C2=A0may have been inve= nted elsewhere=C2=A0but before Eric would formalize "vacation" - Jim Kleckner = and I hacked together a "awk" script to do that function on the UCB CAD 4.1 sy= stems.=C2=A0 I showed it to Sam and a few other people, and I know it went = from Cory to Evans fairly quickly.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Vacation(1) was written shor= tly there after to be a bit more flexible than our original script.<= /font>



=C2=A0 Did that idea ever grow any significant legs= ?
I guess the word here is sign= ificant.=C2=A0 It certainly was used where it made sense.=C2=A0 In the CAD = group, we had simulations that might run for a few days.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We use= d to call the mailer every so often to send status and sometimes do somethi= ng like a checkpoint.=C2=A0=C2=A0It lead to Sam writing syslogd, particularly after Joy created= UNIX domain sockets.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But I can say=C2=A0we used it a number of= places in systems oriented or long running code before syslogd as a scheme= to log errors, deal with stuff.=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=C2=A0 I can't tell if t= he general concept is clever or systems abuse, in those days it seems like = it could've gone either way.

I guess it sorta did survive in the form of automated systems today expecti= ng specially formatted emails to trigger "stuff" to happen.
Exactly.=C2=A0
<= /div>
=3D""=E1=90=A7
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