From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11732 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2023 16:55:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jan 2023 16:55:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE8A42561; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 02:54:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f51.google.com (mail-lf1-f51.google.com [209.85.167.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88E8242552 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 02:54:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f51.google.com with SMTP id bt23so34604589lfb.5 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 08:54:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Uk8MsYhGIdB25sCgE3bPnKWXNlB+5SnPZse3XYArlKw=; b=mlL6Dt8hHpVwAP97dQxXxo9v4j/NbqPcCMMNIQQz3F2F+E0E9fZ1cWKiCH5YrIEUe0 AI0XTWQWIcEsdbMnFJqjeQ1RuB9KLQJJl51u+PYOnm/ZoktA30QjHUo3mbaesVc0A4Gc 8t4ZRpDXkFCcJowYUPiZPABAYVbmjNgFO8Wu3X7iaHRFB0KRhIiK9/cfougq5C0hFsgH fdOX1/07+PhUtgWoSAFX3cl1+osfwXXwnnhp1+qYXSSyBs3O7v/eV7dK1Z+fNA3Fn33v Pk4lX7VH2kM004s0CuV+Krht/r0xUXbkQyxEexWBvIX5HjmSArALo8b6rO2gW7C71X2+ NNpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Uk8MsYhGIdB25sCgE3bPnKWXNlB+5SnPZse3XYArlKw=; b=Na3c92wEis3ETYvGcOaXYeX3NpVhdnl21jD9j/ZRyC9X76OxgNZcK4ZYjINtJeoFl9 PsTw80pI0Q3EyYwvjo9dnQl2vuUgMsAws10Qln7fbQRy6JsJTMeOxSJOqIaPK/ks2xYS lF6HZJ49N4Pv40WK8jp3k3E8eBEysAzWSuRr6SA9lt+hqfgeJ08cxSreRcccDfNM6V2O bPV3NaPW37Bywy2YKIStgSAkq6r/WGVcNbNDnNQlM695pVanJfI2CF+KAydco5RC5XqA r3Xq9p2zbzPZ8TQHj1y/1eY9o5GPKLPObZRrWXun0RwxsA/QR4c3YNMOhnOWo5XZRkMq qjpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kr1DPMUv+KNp10d3qejr3u2rd2gkkv1zqKM3tvfvhpHHIl/Oqvn rafcqCKP32JAtfoaFciBVr+dRr8Kqu/J8+SRO5B8Q1roN8E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXv3KL5rOcLrvXcah5AkciLLLE2+nk6sp5YP4+OKEXgmd/+G6hQNkq5VW15m2X6R6zJPqzpgncaIOQeAFJc2ATo= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4c3b:0:b0:4cb:6c5:89a2 with SMTP id u27-20020ac24c3b000000b004cb06c589a2mr1422639lfq.411.1672851209828; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 08:53:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230102203646.GT25547@mcvoy.com> <7AC50DD1-DAB2-443A-B275-E3FB08031167@gmail.com> <20230103025836.GZ25547@mcvoy.com> <20230104030610.GB25689@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 11:52:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: GRCPBUYQCNSNHQOQLN5EOIKHFVFLLX4F X-Message-ID-Hash: GRCPBUYQCNSNHQOQLN5EOIKHFVFLLX4F X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Interview question List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 11:00 AM Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 8:44 AM Dan Cross wrote: >> > Bill Moore's question was "If we need you to, will you sweep the floor= s?" >> >> This better be well contextualized. Does this mean, "we're a small >> organization and everyone needs to be willing to pitch in as needed?" >> or does it mean, "are you willing to prostrate yourself before the >> altar of this organization in order to prove yourself?" If the former, >> sure. If the latter, then no: sorry, I've done my time in more ways >> than one, including literally sweeping and mopping the floors (and >> cleaning the head) in the Marines. There's a tendency in technology to >> basically haze the friendly new guy; I'm done with that. > > The best programmers I've ever worked with understood teamwork and the te= am produced something way better than what any one of us could do (this was= back in the days before egoless programming, CI, code reviews, etc), so we= invented the bits that worked for us on the fly). The thing is, every sing= le person on that team could (and often did) work on any aspect of the prod= uct, be it the documentation (though the tech writers usually did that), th= e code (the programmers usually did that, but the tech writers committed fi= xes to the example code that was in the book), to the printer being out of = toner / paper, the soda supply in closet running out, the snacks that we go= t at costco running low, stuffing product into boxes to ship to customers, = handling customer calls, dealing with talking to customers at a technical c= onference in a sales booth, presenting papers at conferences, etc. Nobody d= id anything entirely by themselves. We interviewed several 'lone wolves' th= at had done it all, but found the one we hired couldn't integrate into our = pack because they couldn't be part of a team and put the team first and the= group needs ahead of their own. That's the Genesis of my mistrust of this = question, or at least the premise behind it. And Dan, these 'scut tasks' we= ren't about hazing, but just about doing what needed to be done... Perhaps I was not clear. What you are describing sounds more like what I meant when I wrote, 'does this mean, "we're a small organization and everyone needs to be willing to pitch in as needed?"' That's fine; if it needs to be done, it needs to be done. Sometimes that _may_ mean literally sweeping the floor. But too often I've observed what I've taken to calling, "the old school Unix mentality": putting people in a pecking order based on mostly arbitrary criteria, forming an in-group (and implicitly an out-group) and expecting people to grovel to get into the in-group. This is the opposite of teamwork, it's garbage treatment of people, and I'm not interested in it anymore. Here's a literal example of what I mean. From a "pattern" actually called "Sweep the Floor" at https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/apprenticeship-patterns/9780596806842/= ch04.html: | Playing the role of a traditional apprentice also helped me to | build up humility and respect for the senior craftsmen. I remember | Uncle Bob Martin came into a room, saw the trash overflowing, | and changed the garbage bag. My mentor scolded me and | appropriately said that it is not the job of the master craftsman to | take out the garbage. It is a sign of respect and piety that was an | important lesson for me to learn. Yeah, no. Robert C Martin can take out his own trash, thank you very much. And the "mentor" can hire custodial workers. This is highly inappropriate and the person who wrote this should have walked. Again, I've paid my dues in this department. - Dan C.