From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4698 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2023 21:05:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Feb 2023 21:05:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 298C0432CE; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 07:05:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD7F042238 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 07:05:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id x6so2287999ljq.1 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 13:05:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Qc0VuvInDKXGFLvWwmsJqfejiLyo89dak7lwMjoUbA4=; b=E3tsRFgi1iek99yy4hLKIh4ckafe37EHsMIqlDYn5duOppaNjsP+FPQ3pR7i23e74S n0rci1/v4G6/9rmyixcac0/a/mD1BuF5uKO4Bb2zT/dsertGD1/01bvoPwzwio8WszT3 4nCXHuDJdcLbU29Dg0q8jqPKgBziHLJ/Df7o6zqd7tu/+0Dk1VauMmbTYhLbC9tEMJAJ 2s9tHhF/nyJHCNCkmXHNM1Ld8ZPvRAVp6pigzxWPDw7oo/0eLmdvyz3kEVIXo+IkL1qd t5YBEW9rjlJCYk1Gbyr8/+rCjOjQYw8a/V4RHhdCmJwk+xPIO2Ov2+5hPAOboiIOe9Eg CbkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Qc0VuvInDKXGFLvWwmsJqfejiLyo89dak7lwMjoUbA4=; b=ALRtL3CtGcXtq5WKBSMH4lcU/PoYt513BEAg/sCOlESA4zA97CjVrz7/cK8Yq8Ej0t rhAE28P1ydXLFzWkw6wzxCF5P+i8+HCtQuZP46WDksl4fKAkooD7wFRtq+K1IEveHXPR 2EkX71DHg0lfcwczTYGTWeVe02zfFNsQpQ2G0heKlDrhH+mvNiELGlzy93/nDylkwELL bN1wnsPRtatRBPVrUrYLQletC1dBqgyIfIT99NSMJJyPHEeqAJXO0FZUcjZY0yhLnsiH CtVyJHRoSY3UXHRw11MHs0BzwiOWvaX/EQL8HpfrJ+CPTSq3IZJ7EVcBxb0UGOWOgFRZ B5IA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUxYt5cPu7Shd+JWiUllfTFNJlaDt/rGZaYKoZ/KvQ4uaxcRzZR GHioH/08VPPelh0nh874WsaoF6Zeg7fEWJWMZYl8WPtT X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9jt6IBAMs5I+OT5LEpWxd4BpErz6iLhb5tyl9tkx9jDpqc/xIADNaTTRVH+imd+SUn07Zsikm+shuU4WnG67I= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:10af:b0:295:bf93:856a with SMTP id k15-20020a05651c10af00b00295bf93856amr40072ljn.1.1677531935674; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 13:05:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> <202302272004.31RK4aGG001510@freefriends.org> <2f6faeb4-5e73-cf18-b0ff-edc3e1658f72@case.edu> <202302272022.31RKMG2L004091@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:04:59 -0500 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: LU6MDFSLRC4622ST55IJFA5NGUPXJ6QL X-Message-ID-Hash: LU6MDFSLRC4622ST55IJFA5NGUPXJ6QL X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: Generational development [was Re: Re: Early GUI on Linux] List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: [Redirecting to COFF; TUHS to Bcc:] On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 3:46 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > I see the wisdom in your last line there, I've typed and deleted a respon= se to this email 4 times, each one more convoluted than the last. > > The short of my stance though is, as a younger programmer (29), I am cert= ainly not a fan of these trends that are all too common in my generation. = That said, I've set foot in one single softare-related class in my life (hi= ghschool Java class) and so I don't really know what is being taught to fol= ks going the traditional routes. All I know from my one abortive semester = of college is that I didn't see a whole lot of reliance on individual explo= ration of concepts in classes, just everyone working to a one-size-fits-all= understanding of how to be a good employee in a given subject area. Of co= urse, this is also influenced by my philosophy and biases and such, and onl= y represents 4-5 months of observation, but if my minimal experience with c= ollege is to be believed, I have little faith that educational programs are= producing much more than meat filters between StackOverflow and . No offense to said meat filters, people gotta work, but t= here is something lost when the constant march of production torpedoes indi= vidual creativity. Then again, do big firms want sophisticated engineers o= r are we too far gone into assembly line programming with no personal conne= ction to any of the products? I'm glad I'm as personally involved in the s= tuff I work with, I could see myself slipping into the same patterns of apa= thy if I was a nameless face in a sea of coders on some project I don't eve= n know the legal name of any given day. This is an extraordinarily complicated subject, and it's really full of nuance. In general, I think your categorization is unfair. It sounds like you had a bad experience in your first semester of college. I can sympathize; I did too. But a thing to bear in mind is that in the first year, universities are taking kids (and yes, they are kids...sorry young folks, I don't mean that as a pejorative, but consider the context! For most young people this is their first experience living on their own, their first _real_ taste of freedom, and the first where they're about to be subject to rigorous academic expectations without a lot of systemic support) with wildly uneven academic and social backgrounds and preparing them for advanced study in a particular field...one that most haven't even identified for themselves yet. For the precocious student, this will feel stifling; for many others it will be a struggle. What, perhaps, you see as lack of intellectual curiosity may have in fact been the outward manifestations of that struggle. That said...Things are, legitimately, very different today than they were when Unix was young. The level of complexity has skyrocketed in every dimension, and things have gotten to the point where hack upon hack has congealed into a system that's nearly bursting at the seams. It's honestly amazing that anything works at all. That said, good things have been invented since 1985, and the way many of us "grew up" thinking about problems doesn't always apply anymore. The world changes; c'est la vie. - Dan C. > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 12:22 PM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > > > Chet Ramey chet.ramey@case.edu wrote: > > > > > On 2/27/23 3:04 PM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > > > > > > IMHO the dependence upon IDEs is crippling; they cut & paste to the > > > > almost total exclusion of the keyboard, including when shell comple= tion > > > > would be faster. > > > > > > Don't forget cargo-culting by pasting shell commands they got from th= e web > > > and barely understand, if at all. > > > > > > Yeah, really. > > > > I do what I can, but it's a very steep uphill battle, as most > > don't even understand that they're missing something, or that > > they could learn it if they wanted to. > > > > I think I'll stop ranting before I really get going. :-) > > > > Arnold