From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27904 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2023 19:53:28 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 8 Mar 2023 19:53:28 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05DCC412A2; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 05:53:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAE5641287 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 05:53:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id n2so22748062lfb.12 for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:53:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678305200; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=PC2r3OvC4ByiFNWRKUgfs8mo01UIRpGm99sS9cqBm3U=; b=hixaviD/J/FGRQbTMtA0sWToSLImwAm7EmKvP6Y9WKMJEze5zp7Iqfdd6CMtheWyPp PE6xe5isN3tDiFvazgO02uW12uMl82LKYNb6a11R/wkpkAlQqII3ANacfYmKqoFMbf2S 3VqLT8AZM5IkFdXw7rCCRSWSRbaQxpNI/NZsF3ZVxC7ek802vRaBkWrUUkyImujF1ETK tEsjQ4zcKZZ7DOfxk8YBboKeu/uSOuOmJNZq7y0p2oeVCjTihJZroSKats/bnaaYA3n0 HsyUnB/f1Gty1NrLQ9TshtwFBik1g58pWxTrbuJisNNlZhJe8P04FH31Q3ZlhaAP70ir ti1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678305200; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PC2r3OvC4ByiFNWRKUgfs8mo01UIRpGm99sS9cqBm3U=; b=Jq8wjFBsBxeiAD/ibtXsT3kpLFGmFlO2LoWpkpkre9K8DWEuG6A3HkB9uVAAIUpOBN +dw6WuU/QaMoBqqb9OuXOwMks+bwciQtM36DtTv3QrFVFIUPysLc434z1vtSYY5taeh9 ZTlixVtag9eN+YIhZ36TIFs/xlIMJLKcLx88YBjv1fjy4xI6yT7a5SWEUqw3btrVR1/w qibvfj+UV0JPXHVVnKySHxCVj/ZCE1O2++w3QmEU9izc1aKXNqy6Y1zqNX2As112qOVE cZE64NSFUPapmjWRzAc9p5FS3arFta7NcbteU/ydoOHYXFOf5NhvbYUE3YlQl8EJvRzH KbTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWJvm4Ru27pB4rcnjXSEjkV/BVkP0s9VPPhdndRkAAneyErxJKS A9UGjddxqaNVEFpnRPnSH0SOWiUHPuMCZjjrEZ0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8VAtYbma+9U5XbMJER5be+e4pfy883i977jjteZyFfHvaCpieXITjMUB5bn+1zx+5QhhAa/cCdXEcY2w9Y18E= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5fe6:0:b0:4db:2554:93a2 with SMTP id s6-20020ac25fe6000000b004db255493a2mr5871186lfg.10.1678305199712; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:53:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 14:52:43 -0500 Message-ID: To: ron minnich Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: F5WDBDKPQMWJ4G2FHAFWU6KPNJRTIFKN X-Message-ID-Hash: F5WDBDKPQMWJ4G2FHAFWU6KPNJRTIFKN X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] the wheel of reincarnation goes sideways List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: [bumping to COFF] On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:05=E2=80=AFPM ron minnich wro= te: > The wheel of reincarnation discussion got me to thinking: > > What I'm seeing is reversing the rotation of the wheel of reincarnation. = Instead of pulling the task (e.g. graphics) from a special purpose device b= ack into the general purpose domain, the general purpose computing domain i= s pushed into the special purpose device. > > I first saw this almost 10 years ago with a WLAN modem chip that ran linu= x on its 4 core cpu, all of it in a tiny package. It was faster, better, an= d cheaper than its traditional embedded predecessor -- because the software= stack was less dedicated and single-company-created. Take Linux, add some = stuff, voila! WLAN modem. > > Now I'm seeing it in peripheral devices that have, not one, but several i= ndependent SoCs, all running Linux, on one card. There's even been a recent= remote code exploit on, ... an LCD panel. > > Any of these little devices, with the better part of a 1G flash and a lar= ge part of 1G DRAM, dwarfs anything Unix ever ran on. And there are more an= d more of them, all over the little PCB in a laptop. > > The evolution of platforms like laptops to becoming full distributed syst= ems continues. > The wheel of reincarnation spins counter clockwise -- or sideways? About a year ago, I ran across an email written a decade or more prior on some mainframe mailing list where someone wrote something like, "wow! It just occurred to me that my Athlon machine is faster than the ES/3090-600J I used in 1989!" Some guy responded angrily, rising to the wounded honor of IBM, raving about how preposterous this was because the mainframe could handle a thousand users logged in at one time and there's no way this Linux box could ever do that. I was struck by the absurdity of that; it's such a ridiculous non-comparison. The mainframe had layers of terminal concentrators, 3270 controllers, IO controllers, etc, etc, and a software ecosystem that made heavy use of all of that, all to keep user interaction _off_ of the actual CPU (I guess freeing that up to run COBOL programs in batch mode...); it's not as though every time a mainframe user typed something into a form on their terminal it interrupted the primary CPU. Of course, the first guy was right: the AMD machine probably _was_ more capable than a 3090 in terms of CPU performance, RAM and storage capacity, and raw bandwidth between the CPU and IO subsystems. But the 3090 was really more like a distributed system than the Athlon box was, with all sorts of offload capabilities. For that matter, a thousand users probably _could_ telnet into the Athlon system. With telnet in line mode, it'd probably even be decently responsive. So often it seems to me like end-user systems are just continuing to adopt "large system" techniques. Nothing new under the sun. > I'm no longer sure the whole idea of the wheel or reincarnation is even a= pplicable. I often feel like the wheel has fallen onto its side, and we're continually picking it up from the edge and flipping it over, ad nauseum. - Dan C.