From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2545 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2023 15:44:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jan 2023 15:44:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83D84255A; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 01:43:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-f182.google.com (mail-lj1-f182.google.com [209.85.208.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11FA142552 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 01:43:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f182.google.com with SMTP id g14so35773656ljh.10 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 07:43:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=UbkLY9ioGHRENWEB7lruwDRPUDKn1gKsw73JZbPt55I=; b=Ijk6LkZ085AlSKJa4HTY/v3CZGmZX//BdwL77VOnLWNSkQZuFb/LUhPzZosBZv3pIK tTGhaZ1vOFs/sE+2jhCGEqxxmwaZdjtTK/pZl+FRBP0jV4Seg3jBHYvwQHv0mT/0iglq oNmVcSOo9ut7wVg6imQO0nJ7paKlFHxXtNpOHI8tWeABcytw//a30joQnCKBwk93iGAL 70IVRZGPMZn/xp1zeqvw10z4BRn/nuQjNHtZ9H0GOeqY4372CAFNEU1gqzSWaXYeVja0 TSV8QsFM/WeUMQufFf7/zX3s2qQSWQk8x8HaMSSbUAEjXXPC2fAeUG9Gr2zfF6neZqqd pfPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=UbkLY9ioGHRENWEB7lruwDRPUDKn1gKsw73JZbPt55I=; b=n+yNzQW14lUM7pDrlrQXBrcUUGD0vXyAsc1CU7KR5pn8QDwE4P1zd7zrcA5+iSZCdu uy8OYborvMf9FyHEjVSqmXvLfS6khnFtjydaC1IdO6EtTBBZFqNp/scbkO5fqzKggzTq fX50xEmTlQQdKCjdQGElJONymwC2n/T2Lgjws/Lnu43fbSbpRc3Id6T+tvNUzfLkaMv3 KMJeBZyTjWnGAZn8L4QxMrbQvPwHxc65PTyaDprg3IvPdXpmqa1G9BnM2dr6nuwNDEvv 2uABw6eZWrvvhUIKqnfeSpfTka+QbSAj5VK4QY7jVWd4XS7k/lKvyV5rDGB+CqzknmYN Y3KA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kr0uSpb/4DskWUUqaAe9cw7J+oqph+OfNRSuIxw0Ot7kJdrp89Q BKrLbX2KtkDUSvRLB7Z9sbUAyfyEM7WXd77yorQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXs+JBv+lUwReIDNePnYPkyr4l45w2+5tOlMRE+x4kmTW5npozPEnHMBVZ4lrNJC2ToKPspsQanfiEw1AQ6fxT0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:90c8:0:b0:27f:bdc6:b733 with SMTP id o8-20020a2e90c8000000b0027fbdc6b733mr1295351ljg.445.1672846960052; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 07:42:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230102203646.GT25547@mcvoy.com> <7AC50DD1-DAB2-443A-B275-E3FB08031167@gmail.com> <20230103025836.GZ25547@mcvoy.com> <20230104030610.GB25689@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20230104030610.GB25689@mcvoy.com> From: Dan Cross Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 10:42:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: JQCD3MQGHW5QAKOL3O4Y7DCSNXD7XGPE X-Message-ID-Hash: JQCD3MQGHW5QAKOL3O4Y7DCSNXD7XGPE X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Interview question List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 10:06 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > Bakul gets it. "Entirely by you" does not mean "go get some sand > because you need to make some silicon ..." > > "Entirely by you" means given a set of tools, show me what you did. > Just you. Not your team, just you. Hmm. I've worked on projects where all code had to be reviewed prior to submission into a shared repository (though there was a carve-out for a little experimental area). In that context, how does one define "just you"? > It's not an arbitrary question, Warner, it's giving people have done > it a chance to say so. And weeding out the people who haven't. > > Which is not a great way to sort people in general, it was a great > way to sort people for my 12 person company. We needed people who > could do that, we were too small for people who couldn't. It seems to me that the outcome is more important than the specifics of this exercise. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you were using this as a proxy for whether someone can come in and start contributing largely unguided and without a lot of handholding, and drive something to completion without a lot of external help. That's all well and good, but I don't know if this is the best way to assess that; as worded, it sounds mostly like you're asking if someone has built some tool explicitly used by (at least?) a few other people, but some people make much bigger contributions with much higher impact in very complex systems without ever doing that. I think Warner's point is sound: you're building something within a framework/system/design/whatever that's been shaped by many others before you; what is the meaning of an individual contribution in that sense? In some sense, I've written software used by billions of people, but they would never know that. I remember when my late mother called me once and said, "I saw that Google was in the news for doing , was that you?" and I replied, "mom, if you ever hear about anything that I did at Google in the news, then I messed up very badly and I'm really in a lot of trouble and probably looking for a new job." "Oh," my crestfallen mother said, "I told my friends you worked on that." "Sorry, ma." Internally, I might have built something or changed something used by tens of thousands of engineers, well-documented, etc, but again, most wouldn't think about it that way; most of them wouldn't even know. Warner's example of working inside the FreeBSD kernel similarly: that's used in all kinds of places by many, many people, but most don't give a second thought to wondering how it works. > And Bakul, yes, I asked a lot of other questions. The only other one that > came up repeatedly was the "Safeway question". What's that? If you saw > a coworker at the store, do you go talk to them or do you hide in another > aisle and hope they don't see you? There is your hire/don't hire answer. Ha! Which is the right answer? :-) Seriously, though, this seems highly contextually dependent: I see folks I now around town not infrequently, and I generally smile and nod or say hello if I catch their eye, but if they look like they're in a rush or are shepherding a couple of screaming kids, I'm not going to bother them. > Bill Moore's question was "If we need you to, will you sweep the floors?" This better be well contextualized. Does this mean, "we're a small organization and everyone needs to be willing to pitch in as needed?" or does it mean, "are you willing to prostrate yourself before the altar of this organization in order to prove yourself?" If the former, sure. If the latter, then no: sorry, I've done my time in more ways than one, including literally sweeping and mopping the floors (and cleaning the head) in the Marines. There's a tendency in technology to basically haze the friendly new guy; I'm done with that. - Dan C.