From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24705 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2022 18:17:26 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jan 2022 18:17:26 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 253489D4C1; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 04:17:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3419D4B2; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 04:17:20 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="fI2937c5"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D0FD79D4B2; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 04:17:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f53.google.com (mail-ot1-f53.google.com [209.85.210.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C17AA9D06B for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 04:17:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f53.google.com with SMTP id t4-20020a05683022e400b00591aaf48277so7196130otc.13 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:17:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=47oNRu7gsxzpheYturNwBlzfDXXn9P45R856p2CkDIo=; b=fI2937c5SiUBZYFtu+Vllx0/l3TI3kPE40eExwFTGBme0jB6uGG/SGkVSWUeBlesmi 5ZEKvNeGlVBkkDIjVSRAcXumVcZSssQYc1dnVOvu7+7c71DEumL4uZ+Yh5bG//piRVZd o2bFxcZ882KF+hsmWu6X80s4XWJp8vzh4AJGqNcbJt9aq+JCR34cYrTcwgLe8AS4aH5n dkFbSeTIjuq9C6jmduHFC2dIvkSh0CUO9kq4514MJnKF9XQgGQZPFtrGn3Fjun8RD6gI AEHcPNFE/nWZLCKdCb18lmOjrucFFwgKkcUFsHa/R3jaXYHaPX9zlYEXazuOW8y3D+HK iQeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=47oNRu7gsxzpheYturNwBlzfDXXn9P45R856p2CkDIo=; b=telZ+aJWEsixXr/3VAaTAc05Y8yeqQFur1dibCfjX4d4WefU1HecBXaMP9/69KiyF4 cGSkYl9pdKVnMi7dtzQDF0ZBZkBWPnIA1fEirU1VwqlW6QjiZJpNPcIy/71Fo04kuTRE kQ/r6eySxHsgiVkfEFkv5qbeJijUl3W3D6WfeybJ57IA5W0ahjADyTKr+cWSzymiotKZ CUh4fR6nGw3CBH10O7cGrLStIXRNLIsSBkSncty8s0JP/ZtvTYnhjn/HqrV69RqVyevL 5yA0Grvfe6O2pYE2W4BJhuH9z7n33GxZB5xCEIA9cP+F+w/7LjJYdp//TTbz6TWT+gjj 2OCw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532rbLotJ0aZiY/+AtFo5eXSO7A2A0cDfESz0z+9i97M8yufG1JD itsJpF9WlUv4KnuaNQEgzei4jkHpE2fRxZBRmwWWS980EEw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzpJGgE5M4YvDclsHMhEZ2vtaSa3RiAFzjEFPnZLk4zof6dEnygHWT+CXXIFk2ABWROSbdYdQb3dQWwKDRIzGY= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:5a03:: with SMTP id v3mr4061250oth.17.1642097837976; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:17:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:16:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Subject: Re: [COFF] Scribe (Typesetting System) and Unix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2647386768681315272==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============2647386768681315272== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000051b15605d57ab2c7" --00000000000051b15605d57ab2c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:03 AM Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 8:36 AM Dan Cross wrote: > >> [snip] >> Texinfo was supposedly developed as an alternative to Scribe >> specifically; I know Arnold has said he really likes it for writing books. >> I wonder what the connection between texinfo and latex is, if any at all. >> > > You can best view them as -ms vs -me. Two different sets of macros to > markup the text with semantic information that's then turned into useful > rendering by a variety of ways. texinfo and latex are completely unrelated > at a code level. > Oh sure, but I didn't mean in the sense of code, but rather, philosophically and design-wise. Both seem to be influenced by Scribe's idea of separation of content and presentation (an idea reinvented a decade later in HTML+CSS). LaTeX predates texinfo by some time (I've not looked it up, but I > encountered LaTeX years before texinfo, though it's possible I just ignored > it when working on bringing up GNU Emacs on VMS 5.mumble back in the day). > There's some documentation available for both: https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/History.html Paraphrasing that document, MIT had a thing called Bolio which evolved into BoTeX. Independently, Stallman created the "info" format (for ITS perhaps?) and then BoTeX and Info merged to become texinfo, with the stated goal of producing both online and printed representations from a single source document. The earliest texinfo formatter was written in Emacs Lisp. BoTeX seems to date from late 1984, but this doesn't put a date on the creation of texinfo. It _does_ mention `makeinfo` in "the early 90s", so we may assume sometime after 1984 and before 1992? `texinfo.el` from the Emacs 18.29 distribution has copyright dates from 1985, 1988, but it's hard to make out the actual provenance of the source in those files (ie, was the 1985 date due to that file being copied from an earlier file created in 1985?). It's somewhat harder to nail down the exact history of LaTeX; Lamport has this: http://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/pubs.html#latex which seems to indicate that, while "LaTeX: A Document Preparation System" was published in 1986, he had been working on it for at least two or three years before that. https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/lamport-latex-interview.pdf mentions that he started using TeX ca 1979, but doesn't mention when he actually created LaTeX. He goes on to say that he was using a macro package by Max Diaz and thought he could do better "when Don was creating TeX80(?)". I'd guess that means this is in the 1980-81 timeframe? It goes on to say that he moved to DEC in 1985 and never used *roff (I assume he at least poked at it and take that to mean he was never a serious user). It was always my impression that texinfo came more from the ITS info file > world and that the TeX bits were initially just a hack because it was also > on those machines... It would be interesting to hear from people that were > there. > Info definitely came from that world. Texinfo as the marriage of BoTeX as a Scribe-a-like and Info as an online help format seem less like a hack and more deliberate. > To bring it back to Unix, troff et al are obvious examples of the Unix >> philosophy applied to document preparation, while TeX and its progeny have >> always felt very foreign to me. They work, of course, but in a way that >> feels discordant with respect to the aesthetic of the system. Of course, >> TeX originated on the SAIL system, so that makes sense: the PDP-10 world >> had different sensibilities than the Unix world. One wonders whether, if >> Knuth had been working on a Unix machine instead of SAIL, whether TeX would >> have been as chatty as it is; I suspect not. >> > > Likely not. It was only slightly odd to me because our school moved from > TOPS-20 to SunOS and 4.{2,3}BSD (maybe others, don't know when the VAX was > delivered: it was just there when I arrived with a boatload of HP terminals > attached to it which I thought odd). > Which part was weird? The HP terminals? It's quite TOPS-20-y in a lot of what it does. That seemed perfectly > natural to me when I started using it. > Or at least SAIL-y, but it seems like the PDP-10 systems had a lot of cross-pollination between them, possibly due to the shared lineage from the PDP-6 monitor and associated DEC tools like DDT? - Dan C. --00000000000051b15605d57ab2c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:03 AM Warner L= osh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 8:36 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
[= snip]
Texinfo was supposedly developed= as an alternative to Scribe specifically; I know Arnold has said he really= likes it for writing books. I wonder what the connection between texinfo a= nd latex is, if any at all.

You can best view them as -ms vs -me. Two different sets of macros to ma= rkup the text with semantic information that's then turned into useful = rendering by a variety of ways. texinfo and latex are completely unrelated = at a code level.

Oh sure,= but I didn't mean in the sense of code, but rather, philosophically an= d design-wise. Both seem to be influenced by Scribe's idea of separatio= n of content and presentation (an idea reinvented a decade later in HTML+CS= S).

<= div dir=3D"ltr">
LaTeX predates texinfo by s= ome time (I've not looked it up, but I encountered LaTeX years before t= exinfo, though it's possible I just ignored it when working on bringing= up GNU Emacs on VMS 5.mumble back in the day).

There's some documentation=C2=A0available for bo= th: https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_no= de/History.html Paraphrasing that document, MIT had a thing called Boli= o which evolved into BoTeX. Independently, Stallman created the "info&= quot; format (for ITS perhaps?) and then BoTeX and Info merged to become te= xinfo, with the stated goal of producing both online and printed representa= tions from a single source document. The earliest texinfo formatter was wri= tten in Emacs Lisp. BoTeX seems to date from late 1984, but this doesn'= t put a date on the creation of texinfo. It _does_ mention `makeinfo` in &q= uot;the early 90s", so we may assume sometime after 1984 and before 19= 92? `texinfo.el` from the Emacs 18.29 distribution has copyright dates from= 1985, 1988, but it's hard to make out the actual provenance of the sou= rce in those files (ie, was the 1985 date due to that file being copied fro= m an earlier file created in 1985?).

It's some= what harder to nail down the exact history of LaTeX; Lamport has this:=C2= =A0http:/= /lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/pubs.html#latex which seems to indicate= that, while "LaTeX: A Document Preparation System" was published= in 1986, he had been working on it for at least two or three years before = that.=C2=A0https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/lamport-latex-intervi= ew.pdf mentions that he started using TeX ca 1979, but doesn't ment= ion when he actually created LaTeX. He goes on to say that he was using a m= acro package by Max Diaz and thought he could do better "when Don was = creating TeX80(?)". I'd guess that means this is in the 1980-81 ti= meframe? It goes on to say that he moved to DEC in 1985 and never used *rof= f (I assume he at least poked at it and take that to mean he was never a se= rious user).

It was always my i= mpression that texinfo came more from the ITS info file world and that the = TeX bits were initially just a hack because it was also on those machines..= .=C2=A0 It would be interesting to hear from people that were there.
<= /div>

Info definitely came from that = world. Texinfo as the marriage of BoTeX as a Scribe-a-like and Info as an o= nline help format seem less like a hack and more deliberate.
=C2= =A0
To bring it back to Uni= x, troff et al are obvious examples of the Unix philosophy applied to docum= ent preparation, while TeX and its progeny have always felt very foreign to= me. They work, of course, but in a way that feels discordant with respect = to the aesthetic of the system. Of course, TeX originated on the SAIL syste= m, so that makes sense: the PDP-10 world had different sensibilities than t= he Unix world. One wonders whether, if Knuth had been working on a Unix mac= hine instead of SAIL, whether TeX would have been as chatty as it is; I sus= pect not.

Likely not. It = was only slightly odd to me because our school moved from TOPS-20 to SunOS = and 4.{2,3}BSD (maybe others, don't know when the VAX was delivered: it= was just there when I arrived with a boatload of HP terminals attached to = it which I thought odd).

= Which part was weird? The HP terminals?

It's quite TOPS-20-y in a lot of what it does. That seemed per= fectly natural to me when I started using it.

Or at least SAIL-y, but it seems like the PDP-10 syste= ms had a lot of cross-pollination between them, possibly due to the shared = lineage from the PDP-6 monitor and associated DEC tools like DDT?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

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