From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5315 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2022 15:36:30 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jan 2022 15:36:30 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 407949C78F; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:36:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494F19CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:36:25 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="WyvW+yM2"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 51AD29CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:36:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f45.google.com (mail-ot1-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBDC79C78F for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:36:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f45.google.com with SMTP id i5-20020a05683033e500b0057a369ac614so6623870otu.10 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 07:36:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bfNmKrz84jdMZOd2hIuk/mXyl19So2P5STZ81HS9KMA=; b=WyvW+yM2C/CDxRwxD5Onu/vWV8Yyp7BPoQuzpAo0gcipg7ZgoLS8zmWcI+ApCysLNU hK3QGTBtJYzZjij9TlOm5LKKL8ukKjKwUjkDnnrryOGDe3BacNOlioK52WKPsrwl6qFs 3QjAE7lXb8ICDUHcuTvkA9qoViSiv0ZNCergZcVqX6kLgGkzVgV0K4alJacoU/2btHHp 1cG4YLlqHzDOlHs/L4/0T3h9J9h+HxvjFuld8qQv/w0QAV+qN6KVnjfsQLCyqH62Kzsc zJssxgqfS478QX1J20xW+NQz1wOSY82mNonEBWoVkCuVtuYr5h/hMe5Cn7N+9BmZvHxX yRlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bfNmKrz84jdMZOd2hIuk/mXyl19So2P5STZ81HS9KMA=; b=LpIxtTj/2bPbSxg+i39KwKs2WMD19+d88P5lKQ5J+rwbwP3KQcE+8BDSTdD2yCP8ow ry7BYUPJswbSekYLgRj3+YDU3kKWVqGJW0E7r2pqBaBrvxHXzbR6TcvU0xcYf8lCdsMY CvWQgMOa1jz0yfgXtFG+FfUbgEHu7Nisu0lL0d8Vlhh55O5VhmeW11NXaBDDtxHXSTeO GsX60YXcgyN73DyvEytxxmDXGNGfbYto0dRvBgKeeJQWrZy8JGlUMi677W4jpNLiDT/j ekYk4Q47hpkLys5jOe/g+AegMhbJpkL53SumKK6YMXEJ8R3O1CBT3XZcLeEz847eJbDT bNBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531XSGry/KdubsVavrIj1FGxDM/Y7iPpF5JrzKV1voIraMwryIKe WftCU+USaoRT9RV9jG9iSbCLfKtXn0cfCMNMnXmutMTgHHU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxAuwqXrUPoHMCp2JyPRo4KCsDzKlSFEdxKCh2YRHbRRkzbwY8ow7d2isdeUe7xKD1h+aP9m5GWXXWhZeyjoWA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:10c:: with SMTP id i12mr3495088otp.225.1642088182872; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 07:36:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:35:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Subject: Re: [COFF] Scribe (Typesetting System) and Unix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4237422665766502598==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============4237422665766502598== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d47f3105d57872c2" --000000000000d47f3105d57872c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:57 AM Clem Cole wrote: > On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:31 PM Win Treese wrote: > >> [snip] > > The software was commercially available on UNIX and other systems for >> some time from a company called Unilogic, later Scribe Systems, > > There is a long (and somewhat nasty history history here). Mike Shamus > was a one-time CMU CS prof. He created Unilogic and arranged for the IP > to be transferred to him. They had a transpiler that converted > 'compatible BLISS' (*a.k.a*. Vax Bliss) to other languages. I believe > that a flavor of Pascal, Ada and C were possible outputs. I'm not sure = of > the provenance of the transpiler. Contemporary with Scribe was the PQCC > project - Product Quality Compiler Compiler, that Wulf and his students > were working. That work forked Tartan labs around the same time as > Unilogic and I know transpilers had been part of the original work, but I > never closed the loop. To be honest they had to have been related in > some manner, but that all happened after I had left. > > At that point, Scribe had been converted from the original PDP-10 version > to compatible BLISS on VAX/VMS. Unilogic sold versions of Scribe for > TOPS, Vax both VMS and Unix, Sun, Apollo and I believe a number of other > systems (maybe HP and AIX). The sad part is that history seems to have > lost both Scribe and the associated transpiler (if anyone knows otherwise= , > I'd love to hear something). > I understand that Stallman was deeply affected by both the closed nature of and "time bombs" in Scribe. > [snip] > > To give ex-CMU and UCB grad, Ken Keller credit. He tried to bridge that > with his FrameMaker program (which I think Adobe still owns - I have not > seen much about it in few years and have lost track of Keller). IIRC Ken= 's > program could take a Scribe/LaTex style sheets also. But FrameMaker (lik= e > Scribe) was expensive and originally required a UNIX box with 32-bit line= ar > addressing to compile, so it was fairly late to the PC. I never really > learned it although Ken gave me a copy early on to play with. IIRC our > doc folks at Stellar used it (whereas the Masscomp/ORA folks of the time > were strictly roff as previously discussed). > Does anyone have any experience with Interleaf? That was another in the lineage of document processors that seems to have fallen into history. But one could argue that Scribe sort of exists in a way, in LaTeX. My >> understanding is that Leslie Lamport started LaTex as exactly a way >> to bring Scribe=E2=80=99s ideas to producing TeX documents, and the basi= c >> LaTeX structure looks a lot like Scribe. >> > Indeed - that is what I have been told. I am under the impression that > early on when Brian started as a Stanford Prof, he had difficulty getting= a > use license from Unilogic even though he was the original author. > That churn supposedly somehow influenced Leslie WRT to the creation of > LaTex to make Tex more accessible. > Texinfo was supposedly developed as an alternative to Scribe specifically; I know Arnold has said he really likes it for writing books. I wonder what the connection between texinfo and latex is, if any at all. To bring it back to Unix, troff et al are obvious examples of the Unix philosophy applied to document preparation, while TeX and its progeny have always felt very foreign to me. They work, of course, but in a way that feels discordant with respect to the aesthetic of the system. Of course, TeX originated on the SAIL system, so that makes sense: the PDP-10 world had different sensibilities than the Unix world. One wonders whether, if Knuth had been working on a Unix machine instead of SAIL, whether TeX would have been as chatty as it is; I suspect not. - Dan C. --000000000000d47f3105d57872c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:57 AM Clem Cole= <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:31 PM Win Treese <treese@acm.org> wrote:
[snip]
The software was commercially available on UNIX and other systems for
some time from a company called Unilogic, later Scribe Systems,
There is a long (and somewhat nasty history history here).=C2=A0 M= ike Shamus was a one-time CMU CS prof. =C2=A0 He created Unilogic and arran= ged for the IP to be transferred to him. =C2=A0 They had a transpiler that= converted 'compatible BLISS' (a.k.a. Vax Bliss) to other la= nguages.=C2=A0 I believe that a flavor of Pascal, Ada and C were possible o= utputs. =C2=A0 I'm not sure of the provenance of the transpiler. =C2=A0= Contemporary with Scribe was the PQCC project - Product Quality Compiler C= ompiler, that Wulf and his students were working.=C2=A0 That work forked Ta= rtan labs around the same time as Unilogic and I know transpilers had been = part of the original work,=C2=A0but I never closed the loop.=C2=A0 To be ho= nest they had to have been related in some=C2=A0manner,=C2=A0but that all h= appened after I had left.

At that point,= Scribe had been converted from the original PDP-10 version to compatible B= LISS on VAX/VMS. =C2=A0 Unilogic sold versions of Scribe for TOPS, Vax both= VMS and Unix, Sun, Apollo and I believe a number of other systems (maybe H= P and AIX). =C2=A0The sad part is= that history seems to have lost both Scribe and the associated=C2=A0transpiler (if anyone knows otherwise, I'd love to hear something).
<= /div>

I understand that Stallma= n was deeply affected by both the closed nature of and "time bombs&quo= t; in Scribe.
=C2=A0
[snip]
To give ex-CMU and UCB = grad, Ken Keller credit. He tried to bridge that with his FrameMaker progra= m (which I think Adobe still owns - I have not seen much about it in few=C2= =A0years and have lost track of Keller).=C2=A0 IIRC Ken's program could= take a Scribe/LaTex style sheets also.=C2=A0 But FrameMaker (like Scribe) = was expensive and originally required a UNIX box with 32-bit linear address= ing to compile, so it was fairly late to the PC.=C2=A0 I never really learn= ed it although =C2=A0Ken gave me a copy early on to play with.=C2=A0 IIRC o= ur doc folks at Stellar used it (whereas the Masscomp/ORA folks of the time= were strictly=C2=A0roff as previously discussed).=C2=A0
=

Does anyone have any experience with= Interleaf? That was another in the lineage of document processors that see= ms to have fallen into history.

But one could argue that Scribe sort of exists in a way, in LaTeX. My
understanding is that Leslie Lamport started LaTex as exactly a way
to bring Scribe=E2=80=99s ideas to producing TeX documents, and the basic LaTeX structure looks a lot like Scribe.
Indeed = - that is what I have been told.=C2=A0 I am under the impression that early= on when Brian started as a Stanford Prof, he had difficulty getting a use = license from Unilogic even though he was the original author.=C2=A0 That=C2= =A0churn supposedly somehow influenced Leslie WRT to the creation of LaTex = to make Tex more accessible.

Texinfo was supposedly developed as an alternative to Scri= be specifically; I know Arnold has said he really likes it for writing book= s. I wonder what the connection between texinfo and latex is, if any at all= .

To bring it back to Unix, troff et al are obviou= s examples of the Unix philosophy applied to document preparation, while Te= X and its progeny have always felt very foreign to me. They work, of course= , but in a way that feels discordant with respect to the aesthetic of the s= ystem. Of course, TeX originated on the SAIL system, so that makes sense: t= he PDP-10 world had different sensibilities than the Unix world. One wonder= s whether, if Knuth had been working on a Unix machine instead of SAIL, whe= ther TeX would have been as chatty as it is; I suspect not.

<= /div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

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