From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1830 invoked from network); 14 Jun 2023 22:14:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 14 Jun 2023 22:14:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653CE42568; Thu, 15 Jun 2023 08:14:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D5F842548 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2023 08:13:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2b3424edd5fso17785701fa.0 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2023 15:13:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1686780835; x=1689372835; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Si5G1UqrMIFXNjUzg2EEvziAWd55iBZ/4ibaGGqaqAs=; b=o6Y9X2BewFIgybV/fWeU11H8g5h0VmijPfzalqzVDEqBVd2YcZTvd5+sAYsdOrN+s0 uBsw6RwKQSlYuvasPewtePJk+zcQUi2c7U5rYL1L4D6SQg4HfGEwCUyzf/06TRtqrRCw 8f9NJwviHYp4HVYmuvvXc6667+rQwZaWMx8uHEv0q30XE+fkIX6rYrjY1vsA8bOgOvEX enRdiVWjKSLT0WIsF8xRebuBBo+OW4sSOl+xwmsK7Zm/CNTYsPHm5MJ5ODS8FVMYDgXS HsO0IZDm/bAzuqjhCVe+QcJMqHrGoNABVEn9bjIwciIJbljEzB7AJEVxOsoCjsFp9A5m ybRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1686780835; x=1689372835; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Si5G1UqrMIFXNjUzg2EEvziAWd55iBZ/4ibaGGqaqAs=; b=CXVFd1dGpIE1ang/zsiU5sjX9l1OjWRgHLrxtHSbK/TTgc9yDCR/IdSVl4fbV7z9Ry KnLgjW9Vgt19AUmXk+5pNGHOMXxgCMxPNOarD3HvKBH8TsYAv9iIfoYwcj1z00htSObE 0m0KAAaVYq5lDallRWilKKDCyztkfYOkrxwLC1YoXyEZc41OxEwINqJk1yBa3veryQiB 3TR1FM977X+4psLkiMYDopVoKfKMVmmFGB7tJsitVoG1m/aG0VcOl+pf4eAq3kKMDea6 hUV14ACvGSw/7xhO4Ft4wfTdgNHnCD2JTPMwYHJTi2B5cTpaj8V9Dt3UjrybmRWZGFq3 9DsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDx82xH7sUIdOjjXPnIVEHF56fxVjn155LCuWGQXtUHn204i3yGA 2pPOxPbJkRQZ1gFk+HpGDuEHgXpcIVNuCKv2zwI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ4ELMOWPjTbDXxiKmoiMfDKMYlihDQPuMA7OFt1R+OonoZzI+rE846VTKROvROdTeSvlcGfU524t/H/Y7k2MNo= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b0d2:0:b0:2b1:fdcc:14fb with SMTP id g18-20020a2eb0d2000000b002b1fdcc14fbmr7259588ljl.43.1686780835298; Wed, 14 Jun 2023 15:13:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230612213912.mywv5znz66pk3n5q@illithid> <20230612234953.pwu7oi6hyglsaqzs@illithid> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 18:13:19 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: B44TWH3TKUZKBVHIV2KRFBFF5PIVIMMB X-Message-ID-Hash: B44TWH3TKUZKBVHIV2KRFBFF5PIVIMMB X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "G. Branden Robinson" , Paul Winalski , Computer Old Farts Followers X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: UNIX and its users - new or old List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole wrote: > Dan, I suspect that we are more in agreement than you might recognize. = Your Guide vs. Guild is spot on. I don't have a problem asking questions, = and as you know, I answer many newbie questions WRT SIMH, PiDP-x, and the l= ike, as well as ask questions about stuff I am not familiar with. Indeed! And I apologize if it came across as if I were directing any criticism at you (or anyone else on this list); that wasn't my intention at all. Really, I only wanted to point out a subtlety in what (I think) G. Branden was saying that I thought was (inadvertently) overlooked. > I have had an issue with a questioneer when the reply to the question is:= "Here is how to learn the answer " (i.e., teach the questioneer how to fin= d the solution), but if said party is unwilling to do the background work (= or the suggested work from the answer) - but just wants to be spoon-fed for= that particular issue so they can move on, instead of learning how to solv= e it and hopefully the next issue themselves. I have a problem with this, too, but I think that's a bit orthogonal to what was under discussion. Of course, in any of these interactions, one hopes that the other party actually wants to learn and is willing to put in the effort! > Someone asking a question is fine with me. And answer from me, or you m= ay offer a small reminder of here is how to learn. Asking -- "Folks, I ca= n't be the first person that ran into this ... what can I read'/where can I= learn/is there a tutorial/book, etc. that explains/has an example on how t= o do X" is a perfectly fine question (we get them on simh all the time as a= n example). Even "I'm stuck, and I'm getting this result when I try ..." = So how you ask your question helps, of course, that is, please try to dem= onstrate that you have done some work already but are currently running int= o a dead end. Absolutely! I'm sure we have all run into the issue of, "I've got a problem and simply don't know where to start: what's your advice?" before and I try (and, I admit, sometimes fail) at being receptive to that for others as well. It can be hard to ask, because it can feel embarrassing, but we've all been there before. > That said, as you point out, how you answer is just as important. RTFM = or see-figure-one are not ok answers - tempting as they may seem to be. B= ut I think it is ok to say: "If you look here ... read this book/document, = you should be able to figure it out" is a fair reply and not acting like t= he "Guild" -- that, to me, is guiding. But if the same user just asked t= he same question on a different list when they were pointed to on how to fi= nd that answer, that is not the proper answer. The trick for the OP is to = try to do your homework and show how/why you are stuck - what don't you und= erstand - so you can be guided and demonstrate you actually want to learn. Absolutely. > WRT to respect each other and look at each other as peers. Amen. Indeed. And I'd like to reiterate that I generally feel like this list and this community is very good at that. However, the charlatan effect with the Martins, Holubs, Jeffries, etc, of the world is very real. Curiously, Holub is listed as a technical reviewer on K&R2! (No idea how that happened....) > For all my joking, I think it's great that you, Branden, et al. have take= n the reins from folks like me and are keeping alive the ideas and techniqu= es we started years before. I thank you both (and the others out there I ha= ve not directly recognized) for your efforts, and I think you two both do l= earn and look to lists like COFF and TUHS as amazing resources where you ca= n both learn and contribute (as a peer). Note I learn from both lists all = the time. But I do reserve the right to sometimes ask as a master, passin= g on knowledge (like why ignoring/denigrating Fortran is at your peril). I= did try to do it humorously, and I'm even happier that Branden caught my p= robably bad/poor taste - Kung Fu joke. That's really kind of you to say, Clem. Honestly, I didn't catch that it was a weed joke (despite "weedhopper" literally containing the word "weed") until G. Branden pointed it out. I guess that says something about the kinda rock I live under these days.... - Dan C.