From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD38226342 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 15:13:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA054363F; Sat, 11 May 2024 23:13:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B50E44362E for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 23:13:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2df83058d48so36791811fa.1 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 06:13:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715433190; x=1716037990; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=TFc4jW346TAHeJLwSPVGbet10bFfxFoyOQFfKwPpsnw=; b=HJFF3lWyC55VpJji27ZOqTckbzt8DVri+TJp9YxtRPtOK3C+tfaugemkxR143vy5/Q lopHRctSVy9NGnvedSfQvUZOdhsXIISs9UyACDO1jztXDly1qzs2b9CDeYgJwTZyovei 3fKcG6FV5qMxx9o+SKIGrLo8wtLqCKx+o1Nrifhw59gZIbf4Da2l3H592Hgo9aS3ewAr P3hHEDHJdERQ1ZmtknLjK0fHZFT26qljRzdRKMEtEqelC8596UzZP6cHktWXGKopW5sJ f29MqtkByK9l8ioZKptijLI9QqtJrs8DgmTg0PpUi8Arun2zJ9zxT2L2+pzjMQWgfsXZ tidw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715433190; x=1716037990; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=TFc4jW346TAHeJLwSPVGbet10bFfxFoyOQFfKwPpsnw=; b=UOBWC2z31J/KuzhbrEBRhabTo4naqt9ChSIItFXmS2Wu5uGrvH6smXQFjKLkbDjLdh lASxfoYlpUi5vSgpyEuMeMYygm+5nsvJFshTPnN3IQImzkN1bPBZEYrhBDw9HaeP6ez3 SN5D3IH9H13rzyTF9BXcBW7kH3dj6aMoBdI/MvAFDHQgXeN3LUiEerv0VOlh8mQp+/Hb Y1b8w6pbPHV3XLtfQc3dkDO4uOvofzjda+H267+lmyWL+UmBJzBX2hBt1Z1AoIMMBKGD 1XR/3ArEmz49tEE4zjNOIlr4jtO4kzy/XmrKpZebPRjsI2ppggp7fRyP5ycYIi/B9JoF 0fqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzbSwfqeC4Mf+tvI9hUXvQXTovJUTFjkH5xNM2dhnJ8jb1tsrtn AawRiXCwB9tmD2mwJnS1W+bUbbNvfH/vYoZoueAZI+tD+ur/mm0tgKrMO7n5zfdbgypQPPM7ZiM FW6oE4sJvFvT9l/57RNiD4pFDE/0KWoq6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGUR7+ruebTV8EqxauyzgiyLddvIHnBPyv18/6Vrm7Fv1bc+JMHXGXKbghwWK+r2qhbQmqRXfwCbeQwyZE2ByQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7219:0:b0:2d8:6606:9e61 with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2e5203a1e5emr31721991fa.48.1715433190103; Sat, 11 May 2024 06:13:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 09:12:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: nliber@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: AYGMEL6C3NB5OEWW64IEIQGJPYNILNTN X-Message-ID-Hash: AYGMEL6C3NB5OEWW64IEIQGJPYNILNTN X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: coff@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] On Bloat and the Idea of Small Specialized Tools List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 7:23=E2=80=AFPM Nevin Liber wrot= e: > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 11:37=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole wrote: >> The key is that not all "bloat" is the same (really)=E2=80=94or maybe on= e person's bloat is another person's preference. > > A lot of "bloat" comes because our systems really aren't focused on "disc= overability". > > While I probably have used "pr" in the past, I've totally forgotten, the = name "pr" doesn't really help me understand what it is for, and it's just o= ne of 982 files in my /usr/bin directory alone. How does one discover it? This is a fantastic question. At one point, I went through every command in /bin and /usr/bin and figured out what it did. That was a tremendously useful exercise, but that was in the days when the total number of commands in those directories numbered in the low hundreds; 982 is a lot. `pr` is an interesting case in point. I would guess that the name comes from Multics, where `print` (short name `pr`) is sort of the equivalent of `cat`, but contains a lot of extra functionality to control output, read archives, etc. But if one has never used Multics (and let's be honest: the total number of people in the world who have done so is a tiny, tiny fraction of the number of computer users), one would never guess that. When I started using Unix, I thought that "pr" was how you sent a file to the printer; "lpr" was highly non-intuitive, but I'd never seen a line printer at that point (our first home computer was a Mac with an imagewriter); the idea of `cat`ing a file into the printer device wasn't something I'd ever even considered (besides, I think the device was owned and writable only as root). > It's like using "sed" instead of "head": sure, if you already know "sed",= you don't need "head", but for English speaking folks who know "tail" is t= here, it would be (and was in the old days) surprising and frustrating not = to have "head". I don't know if this is an argument about bloat per se, but rather about system design generally. Sure, `sed 10q` does more or less what `head` does, but that's not a great argument for `head` not existing. After all, assembler can do everything that C can, and yet given a choice between the two, for most programs I'd prefer the latter. > If I have a command and I want it to do something slightly different, the= first place I look is to see if there is a command line option for that. = I know how to discover that (either --help or the man pages). > > GUIs were better at discoverability. The menu at the top made it easy to= see (and constantly reinforced) what was possible, at least until we got i= nto the era of contextual menus, gestures and force presses. > > They aren't perfect. I get plenty of dialog boxes which have a check box= for "Do not show this message again" which I don't dare check, because I d= on't know how to bring up whatever choice it wants me to decide on should I= need to change it in the future. > > And once you have users/customers, it's hard to get rid of things, becaus= e they value stability. Absolutely. - Dan C.