From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB19E20287 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 01:23:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CBE435EC; Sat, 11 May 2024 09:22:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb34.google.com (mail-yb1-xb34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b34]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88512435EB for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 09:22:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb34.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-de45dba15feso2759602276.3 for ; Fri, 10 May 2024 16:22:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715383373; x=1715988173; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=G8q2lBApvKsPFOOIQZQELuO3Ci5ULiwcclc4WhmcHkE=; b=S1aQS7E+GnKIaWg+ogLY9oR+2zStEeLC0RTIvGVhIPiP579CUCXHVQ46QEv2e4BgEi FIlsfxRaRhyLBhIXthOMH8UdCNKrqiAFDHGoq84YKrFJWhocWdpAoVUhOw0MUzB6gCtS WETj57NZE4//OaSpLWTp8FSYEvuUmT7jknkGjsSOLcFu0C7VskNNjiwItBloQlWlhOOB c659OtRkl3ZC3je4Fe/YvO20HzLPyB50OW70yg/QMfZ4CnGuevMy6DbPGyg3cAKzIudG wA/aCHFr6Ksl6LhYch3fj7p5ddu0lRYXG2ZtvBPdWnCpk/RJKgio6Y/h+/Kp9BRyBy77 4iow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715383373; x=1715988173; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=G8q2lBApvKsPFOOIQZQELuO3Ci5ULiwcclc4WhmcHkE=; b=A9N/JX+rGyUdnPuj9ixGZ8cs07MlBJTtY6wzb7iRgZ3HUu4Yyh88UFbuX8eOsR8Ice QslmniWgTiqtNNrOXjZGmIur6HsMC2QiZMKF3LCLI67MMe2/f5ctcI1HyKmQNuylDYzF YoxHaEqbGTlLmlVFMLHudBWfgV0ymT776kTK6knx8uDEm7q6bnwg7bWktWpBgmieEHsq URBsMbSrgoeYFL1k5QJmp4KmFolSGVrHjPeXvE0abS1o784fS2tiCn1r0GkkaHWp3xB5 nTkuavixGmdLp992vv0hYGPuXxGNd4r3hDjMUY5HyKibymVcmRpr8cCjgAI4zvX4MO6N 4B7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxR9rUKBIiOB42GNxwrUaY/rfx/Nr+n++ZQYyEuQWemGCa9HH87 xUU7QpQ5h5uD5JKsxJyvnAH21kQ522f9Hms7j0tKQq9OaQwE8UmIAPXW/AKB8CFjvK5K9xUZ+BI XEpNWTFw5huZLtvmNuzLyFzw6jSt3PA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFbUBFEC7jD+/FPRXUUnyIUuIP9+41cvK/A1Rm/Cn8sPPKFiYTLNws/yiZOnpXEau400aCxzSmxVMa/3ggub78= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:2c3:0:b0:de6:141c:3430 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dee4f1a5d66mr4314798276.17.1715383372799; Fri, 10 May 2024 16:22:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Nevin Liber Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 18:22:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: coff@tuhs.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000096e5ed061821d05b" Message-ID-Hash: LVLQRKVWUJ2GA3YU67T5XVMXSBORU7Q4 X-Message-ID-Hash: LVLQRKVWUJ2GA3YU67T5XVMXSBORU7Q4 X-MailFrom: nliber@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Reply-To: nliber@gmail.com Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] On Bloat and the Idea of Small Specialized Tools List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000096e5ed061821d05b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 11:37=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole wrote: > The key is that not all "bloat" is the same (really)=E2=80=94or maybe one= person's > bloat is another person's preference. > A lot of "bloat" comes because our systems really aren't focused on "discoverability". While I probably have used "pr" in the past, I've totally forgotten, the name "pr" doesn't really help me understand what it is for, and it's just one of 982 files in my /usr/bin directory alone. How does one discover it? It's like using "sed" instead of "head": sure, if you already know "sed", you don't need "head", but for English speaking folks who know "tail" is there, it would be (and was in the old days) surprising and frustrating not to have "head". If I have a command and I want it to do something slightly different, the first place I look is to see if there is a command line option for that. I know how to discover that (either --help or the man pages). GUIs were better at discoverability. The menu at the top made it easy to see (and constantly reinforced) what was possible, at least until we got into the era of contextual menus, gestures and force presses. They aren't perfect. I get plenty of dialog boxes which have a check box for "Do not show this message again" which I don't dare check, because I don't know how to bring up whatever choice it wants me to decide on should I need to change it in the future. And once you have users/customers, it's hard to get rid of things, because they value stability. --=20 Nevin ":-)" Liber iber@gmail.com> +1-847-691-1404 --00000000000096e5ed061821d05b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 11:37=E2=80=AFAM = Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:=
The key is that not all "bloat" is the same (rea= lly)=E2=80=94or maybe one person's bloat is another person's prefer= ence.

A lot of= "bloat" comes because our systems really aren't focused on &= quot;discoverability".

While I probably have= =C2=A0used "pr" in the past, I've totally=C2=A0forgotten, the= name "pr" doesn't really help me understand what it is for, = and it's just one of 982 files in my /usr/bin directory alone.=C2=A0 Ho= w does one discover it?

It's like using "= sed" instead of "head": sure, if you already know "sed&= quot;, you don't need "head", but for English speaking folks = who know "tail" is there, it would be (and was in the old days) s= urprising and frustrating not to have "head".

If I have a command and I want it to do something slightly different,= the first place I look is to see if there is a command line option for tha= t.=C2=A0 I know=C2=A0how to discover that (either --help or the man pages).=

GUIs were better at discoverability.=C2=A0 The me= nu at the top made it easy to see (and constantly reinforced) what=C2=A0was= possible, at least until we got into the era of contextual menus, gestures= =C2=A0and force presses.

They aren't perfect.= =C2=A0 I get plenty of dialog boxes which have a check box for "Do not= show this message again" which I don't dare check, because I don&= #39;t know how to bring up whatever choice it wants me to decide on should = I need to change it in the future.


= And once you have users/customers, it's hard to get rid of things, beca= use they value stability.
--
=
=C2=A0Nevin ":-)" Liber=C2=A0 <mailto:nliber@gmail.com>=C2=A0 +1-847-691-1404
<= /div>
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