[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 303 bytes --] "Reflections on Trusting Trust" plus the fact that no one has designed new real computers at the gate level for at least 30 years, maybe longer--it's done in an HDL of some kind, which is to say, software--means it's already way, way too late. I for one welcome our new non-biological overlords. Adam [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 406 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 141 bytes --] _______________________________________________ COFF mailing list COFF@minnie.tuhs.org https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
> On Jan 26, 2022, at 6:09 PM, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote: > > "Reflections on Trusting Trust" plus the fact that no one has designed new real computers at the gate level for at least 30 years, maybe longer--it's done in an HDL of some kind, which is to say, software--means it's already way, way too late. https://arith-matic.com/notebook/4bit-7400-homebrew-computer-cpu https://eater.net/8bit/ http://cpuville.com/Projects/Original-CPU/Original-CPU-home.html Then there are people like Ken Shiriff who are revese engineering from die photos of a chip! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHx-XUA6f9g Of course, you may need some machine learning to reverse engineer a modern chip with bilions of transistors to see if some surreptitious logic was sneaked in! You may need some way to prove the manufactured chip is exactly what was specified. Probably impossible today. _______________________________________________ COFF mailing list COFF@minnie.tuhs.org https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
I'm still waiting for the self timed logic I was taught in the 1980s. Does anyone know why that is not a thing? It seemed smart back then. On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 07:00:52PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote: > > > > On Jan 26, 2022, at 6:09 PM, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > "Reflections on Trusting Trust" plus the fact that no one has designed new real computers at the gate level for at least 30 years, maybe longer--it's done in an HDL of some kind, which is to say, software--means it's already way, way too late. > > https://arith-matic.com/notebook/4bit-7400-homebrew-computer-cpu > https://eater.net/8bit/ > http://cpuville.com/Projects/Original-CPU/Original-CPU-home.html > > Then there are people like Ken Shiriff who are revese > engineering from die photos of a chip! > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHx-XUA6f9g > > Of course, you may need some machine learning to reverse > engineer a modern chip with bilions of transistors to see > if some surreptitious logic was sneaked in! > > You may need some way to prove the manufactured chip is > exactly what was specified. Probably impossible today. > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF@minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm _______________________________________________ COFF mailing list COFF@minnie.tuhs.org https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
Companies like Wave Computing built devices using NCL (null convention logic) which are self-timed. If you vary temp & voltage, results may come slower or faster but always correct. There is even a clockless RISC-V design called Aristotle. But there may be practical issues that could've made bringing this technology to market difficult. scj can tell you more as he was involved in Wave Computing. There may be other companies but I have not kept track. > On Jan 26, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > I'm still waiting for the self timed logic I was taught in the 1980s. > Does anyone know why that is not a thing? It seemed smart back then. > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 07:00:52PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote: >> >> >>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 6:09 PM, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> "Reflections on Trusting Trust" plus the fact that no one has designed new real computers at the gate level for at least 30 years, maybe longer--it's done in an HDL of some kind, which is to say, software--means it's already way, way too late. >> >> https://arith-matic.com/notebook/4bit-7400-homebrew-computer-cpu >> https://eater.net/8bit/ >> http://cpuville.com/Projects/Original-CPU/Original-CPU-home.html >> >> Then there are people like Ken Shiriff who are revese >> engineering from die photos of a chip! >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHx-XUA6f9g >> >> Of course, you may need some machine learning to reverse >> engineer a modern chip with bilions of transistors to see >> if some surreptitious logic was sneaked in! >> >> You may need some way to prove the manufactured chip is >> exactly what was specified. Probably impossible today. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> COFF mailing list >> COFF@minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm _______________________________________________ COFF mailing list COFF@minnie.tuhs.org https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
On 1/26/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > > https://arith-matic.com/notebook/4bit-7400-homebrew-computer-cpu > https://eater.net/8bit/ > http://cpuville.com/Projects/Original-CPU/Original-CPU-home.html > Bill Buzbee's homebrew machine built with 200 74 series chips runs minix: http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ good fun. _______________________________________________ COFF mailing list COFF@minnie.tuhs.org https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 290 bytes --] On 2022-Jan-26 19:32:41 -0800, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: >I'm still waiting for the self timed logic I was taught in the 1980s. >Does anyone know why that is not a thing? It seemed smart back then. See also the GA144 from http://www.greenarraychips.com/ -- Peter Jeremy [-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 963 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 141 bytes --] _______________________________________________ COFF mailing list COFF@minnie.tuhs.org https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 07:32:41PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > I'm still waiting for the self timed logic I was taught in the 1980s. > Does anyone know why that is not a thing? It seemed smart back then. There were clockless ARM variants, i.e. https://www.edn.com/arm-philips-develop-clockless-processor/ https://www.eetimes.com/arm-offers-first-clockless-processor-core/ also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMULET_microprocessor DF _______________________________________________ COFF mailing list COFF@minnie.tuhs.org https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff