From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7535 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2023 19:57:59 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Mar 2023 19:57:59 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B57415A2; Sat, 11 Mar 2023 05:57:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 843B541585 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2023 05:57:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id e9-20020a056830200900b00694651d19f6so3538640otp.12 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678478271; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gmSdFBi8jkhsikxlTsJwbcxnI9owhldNxGNbvUjjus4=; b=gvWAAjjz97QrOjRCJDbTqvEXX9J26LfbkQHkCWiF9J6g+7xvP+zh2GDsOFuGLrweiI UgO7GKi8tkemsyD7NpT2Zs67Am1kBquchvnHG6qFz8N2/aBwvY97866j1TIhGggvtJdm vD5ZoniSx+Tpf7fyUtCvn1M0uFwX8jmTq4rAW2S86pVwkhH3oyC5Gtitva9CNLZBAFk5 jrfpTLLPgtxLPYRg/VAK4aQlwhxsf+XHeUKoJsNOz2DfNxwDV0T+CLCpD9+PyUvdg0/F JLEEQ95gp5oAFvRLBP5s7It3BCtCzX3/8dRQLYCLovgelXB1dEg+47D8/tnEo6Ea1UjZ GlWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678478271; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=gmSdFBi8jkhsikxlTsJwbcxnI9owhldNxGNbvUjjus4=; b=Fqh/Tj6bIolh54Wz5kAXx+K8HUHYJzbQcKn/VCY/7mN2ICgXaTnOvWv58Ns/6c9T2k wewRCcVX70xIbgSyNqFfixebS/nnKjYOxcTl2iZrtrwWKNkIBSfx/i0X1QjIZ2K78nCH +lR+/7ec+JqVy2UB6x0IqhZ8w0TgLXDF6FPOiDOybTuPZo32AoWRplNtRinuhZYkUTgh 9fXUZh9ruEaeV8RLZAb8JoiYuG9swQXrE0sIXfG8eK0YkzK6abVeVcJObgir7fthqXzC s/lqRp8g8i+EDD5+axowyLPkNBVNopSwfnXC82EiK2M48ohCObCSBxMdI7UCJLNLc9tb M3Xw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKU5q750GoIBB6nKLSA27OCOMUeEi61bbHS/aEkMbt322M5eETG1 aZtoamooBDJaGix3R+M4LODVrQ9WYA4AeY3woAY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+Y5dpgyeq5f3yQhHUwZIG1qAgYcllqwFkMCaKp2MFz6mhwcX61dcEg5pfFtVYIOaUUXCjHy5Gyq/6rSpfhr1Y= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:5f87:0:b0:68d:7557:f74c with SMTP id g7-20020a9d5f87000000b0068d7557f74cmr9068796oti.7.1678478271372; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:57:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <69248852-1701-4938-8A4D-3B27F3018E83@iitbombay.org> <2CBA9AD7-BC25-40BF-ADE6-A6494D95A4B6@iitbombay.org> In-Reply-To: <2CBA9AD7-BC25-40BF-ADE6-A6494D95A4B6@iitbombay.org> From: Marshall Conover Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:57:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000020e29b05f6912d11" Message-ID-Hash: MUO4Y63M6374J4EQWYH4WPDC7WBWS6VQ X-Message-ID-Hash: MUO4Y63M6374J4EQWYH4WPDC7WBWS6VQ X-MailFrom: marzhall.o@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , coff@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: Conditions, AKA exceptions. (Was: I can't drive 55: "GOTO considered harmful" 55th anniversary) List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000020e29b05f6912d11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While all this error and exception discussion is going down, I have to mention this piece: http://joeduffyblog.com/2016/02/07/the-error-model/ The author worked at MS on their "midori" research OS, and discussed what went into their decisions around using return codes, exceptions, etc. I felt it was a nice breakdown of the pros and cons of the different approaches, and fleshed out the concepts in my mind a bit. I thought others might enjoy it as well. That said, I absolutely loathe exceptions with all my heart. In my experience, along Warner and Matt's lines, they're more prone to the sort of abuse that wastes my time than they are productive. It's not that they can't be used well, they just so often aren't. Cheers, Marshall On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 1:57=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah wr= ote: > On Mar 10, 2023, at 10:03 AM, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:36=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah wrote: > >> During development the runtime should simply invoke a debugger in this > case. This should be perfectly doable but for some reason it is considere= d > acceptable to crash a program! I don=E2=80=99t want to run a program *und= er a > debugger* but want it invoked at the right time! > > > > Common Lisp implementations have been doing that for years! Too bad > > using Lisp means bringing all the rest of the Lisp stuff with it, > > including the attitude. Oh well. :-) > > It can even fix the problem and continue! > > Note that such things don't have to be *tied* to Lisp. But that > would require a change in mindset. --00000000000020e29b05f6912d11 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While all this error and exception discussion is goin= g down, I have to mention this piece: http://joeduffyblog.com/2016/02/07/the-error-mod= el/

The author worked at MS on their "mid= ori" research OS, and discussed what went into their decisions around = using return codes, exceptions, etc. I felt it was a nice breakdown of the = pros and cons of the different approaches, and fleshed out the concepts in = my mind a bit. I thought others might enjoy it as well.

That said, I absolutely loathe exceptions with all my heart. In my ex= perience, along Warner and Matt's lines, they're more prone to the = sort of abuse that wastes my time than they are productive. It's not th= at they can't be used well, they just so often aren't.

Cheers,

Marshall
<= br>
On Fri,= Mar 10, 2023 at 1:57=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
On Mar 10, 2023, at 10:03 AM, Dan Cross &l= t;crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:36=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrot= e:
>> During development the runtime should simply invoke a debugger in = this case. This should be perfectly doable but for some reason it is consid= ered acceptable to crash a program! I don=E2=80=99t want to run a program *= under a debugger* but want it invoked at the right time!
>
> Common Lisp implementations have been doing that for years! Too bad > using Lisp means bringing all the rest of the Lisp stuff with it,
> including the attitude. Oh well. :-)

It can even fix the problem and continue!

Note that such things don't have to be *tied* to Lisp. But that
would require a change in mindset.
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