From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3554 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2021 17:33:50 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 23 Dec 2021 17:33:50 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E85FD9CEF6; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 03:33:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01079CEF3; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 03:33:44 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="abMi2kM7"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DEB619CEF3; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 03:33:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f170.google.com (mail-vk1-f170.google.com [209.85.221.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92A2F9CEAD for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 03:33:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id g65so3643655vkf.4 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:33:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bUX6wekwp1exZFYZoaqYhQtF/vHNcXzXXn+I7MMWJbI=; b=abMi2kM74JEJabii3d5y5HJXh6Y/eDoM4r1w/yrffqL747dGiKmN5fqrrQFHEdhLn+ lBZ10OTG8vLv+drAo0Y6lJ/knncL6dG1p3l6DAsQ3AjweeIonZxo+z9iftLYJicegYQ8 v2509IwWfyuCLahjHPQ0g0orPRFjkbBpWBD4FOejqvPY9M7ghvSn6X8DN1pzRBECsYuO i28871aqTX+YhbwSHPu3tct3zAiv+QoJymmmA7X8Mu7slnk9mBxa5J51kBkWL5G8Q981 BZceaK6GoEXmCjKS/yc15FRQkmewLL5AMIXn9Rc0RShRif18ewj3/tEPrjpuNsmJqz5W 5Q0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bUX6wekwp1exZFYZoaqYhQtF/vHNcXzXXn+I7MMWJbI=; b=s/aWzlVdibKyrCNctNm/fe+bdghuiVsp424+b0+Pokrr39zLGuElz+WoeA4KdbcLLj aUkGBEWZkbODKqUTyDzODVAK0Ii00NjGQNj0kuye/k4DR/Bk3vlLhTr7owxWOG0cOF2j 08Rc7I3D5YG9UpQRQFOhlZ3FB3fM6CwqSDsUIdTcX2hmp14GMZHNw8C9gM/Q8WX7Rtim Wm5tDt5eB7MrCPwZftuEfTOkdgaYM9zxbwegm3Mqxtb3XMwwGkG85VQZ/7TaSpAu4Kyr 50Uj+8LG6Xa5KBcIynzEQ3qU12tFgDJycCYS7NQNlNuqL4FGZ3PXbs1fzpPfnh1Z48Nx Kprw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vjKbp+gCIvxJawpiFrAACSrjFfMREy4cqUHdn0XLHeGI0H+n0 b/8G4mGhIhvibK7ICaEwsbs4oa1qf91mPKO6mFKpYbOj5MM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNI4/ruYVRL/Q3kUoxeu5mU4HJW6UlFpQPUI43khvBmzoO2MFhWfieuyXCmT1+eD8SxxSf2rV5lcPHccTtQNk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:e12:: with SMTP id bk18mr1144040vkb.40.1640280820521; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:33:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20201222224306.GA28478@minnie.tuhs.org> <202012230546.0BN5kDwe028815@sdf.org> <1653639b-8e41-7437-8c0e-32564dfdd788@laposte.net> <20211221162139.GP24180@mcvoy.com> <9e3b9669-6ffc-2701-bdcb-e287495419c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:33:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [COFF] [TUHS] ksh88 source code? X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: COFF , jason-tuhs@shalott.net Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9201013439406621867==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============9201013439406621867== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a3b01a05d3d3a369" --000000000000a3b01a05d3d3a369 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 9:14 AM John Cowan wrote: > -tuhs +coff > > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 1:30 AM wrote: > > >> As a vendor or distributor, you would care. Anyone doing an OS or other >> software distribution (think the BSDs, of course; > > > There is no legal reason why the BSDs can't distribute GPLed software; > indeed, they did so for many years. Their objection is purely ideological. > However, not all of our downstreams could, however. So it's also a practical consideration. Also, some left over anger from the early days when BSD software would sometimes have the copyrights removed and be GPL'd. Thankfully, all the old cases of that were resolved years ago. Anyone selling a hardware device with embedded >> software (think switches/routers; think IOT devices; think consumer >> devices like DVRs; etc) needs to care. > > > Only if they are determined to infringe. Obeying the GPL's rules (most > often for BusyBox) is straightforward, and the vast majority of infringers > (per the FSF's legal team) are not aware that they have done anything wrong > and are willing to comply once notified, which cures the defect (much less > of a penalty than for most infringements). The ex-infringers do not seem > to consider this a serious competitive disadvantage. GPL licensors are > generous sharers, but you have to be willing to share yourself. > Except it's easier to just use software where there's not a compliance issue. Regardless of the altruism of the GPL licensors, easier is a competitive advantage. It's taken about 15 years from the initial busy-box suits for supply chains to catch up with the proper provenance so that downstreams know they are getting the proper sources. GPL (or similar "virally" >> licensed) software carries legal implications for anyone selling or >> distributing products that contain such software; and this can be a >> motivation to use software with less-restrictive license terms. > > > Only to the victims of FUD. Reusing source code is one thing: repackaging > programs is another. > Having been on the other side of this (a GPL shakedown that was improper), I'd say it's more than just FUD. The GPL is cool and all, but it isn't all roses and sunshine. Warner --000000000000a3b01a05d3d3a369 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 9:14 AM John = Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
=
-tuhs=C2=A0+coff

On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 1:30 AM &l= t;jason-tuhs@sh= alott.net> wrote:
=C2=A0
As a vendor or distributor, you would care.=C2=A0= Anyone doing an OS or other
software distribution (think the BSDs, of course;

There is no legal reason why the BSDs can't distribute GPLed s= oftware; indeed, they did so for many years.=C2=A0 Their objection is purel= y ideological.

Howe= ver, not all of our downstreams could, however. So it's also a practica= l consideration.

Also, some left over anger from t= he early days when BSD software would sometimes have the copyrights removed= and be GPL'd. Thankfully, all the old cases of that were resolved year= s ago.

Anyone selling a hardware device with embedded
software (think switches/routers; think IOT devices; think consumer
devices like DVRs; etc) needs to care.

Only if= they are determined to infringe.=C2=A0 Obeying the GPL's rules (most o= ften for BusyBox) is straightforward, and the vast majority of infringers (= per the FSF's legal team) are not aware that they have done anything wr= ong and are willing to comply once notified, which cures the defect (much l= ess of a penalty than for most infringements).=C2=A0 The ex-infringers do n= ot seem to consider this=C2=A0a serious competitive disadvantage.=C2=A0 GPL= licensors=C2=A0are generous sharers, but you have to be willing to share y= ourself.

Except it's = easier to just use software where there's not a compliance issue. Regar= dless of the altruism of the GPL licensors, easier is a competitive advanta= ge. It's taken about 15 years from the initial busy-box suits for suppl= y chains to catch up with the proper provenance=C2=A0so that downstreams kn= ow they are getting the proper sources.


=
GPL (o= r similar "virally"
licensed) software carries legal implications for anyone selling or
distributing products that contain such software; and this can be a
motivation to use software with less-restrictive license terms.

Only to the victims of FUD.=C2=A0 Reusing source code is = one thing: repackaging programs is=C2=A0another.

Having been on the other side of this (a GPL shaked= own that was improper), I'd say it's more than just FUD.
=
The GPL is cool and all, but it isn't all roses and suns= hine.

Warner
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