From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14339 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2023 18:34:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Feb 2023 18:34:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE4541C3B; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 04:34:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x629.google.com (mail-ej1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::629]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0DFA41C34 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 04:34:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x629.google.com with SMTP id qb15so16166488ejc.1 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2023 10:34:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=psuq6UNx6tyTTWo8vbd5EQNYJHfXNYDjzgcjCh7/0Xo=; b=hHYEMzRARTdPffxgN2WF4U0+fI1abaFK1VM+rodM1cEW2YnGv0iUcmwgoiGErIKqNG PVeZFwk1C9nM/hAQSuA8383jaoE2xjzmW3Tl5nQevBiziPVxu0w+H82bchXHwHJrj1ot gKpywJLxpy4wLGKRhHJApfNa/O2S+FI+DQ9f0xJCgUsHTdIrGrLJV7CvZkHr+acZN4uT OUU3kJOE0rdiA9IAapTMJ209SdF7G498LSQnM3Qa2mFVLQyOD5PhBsXajKWsFdt8W45s JntEer+sdgtvkb4pTlLTEHwIAjHY2m2cBqLOYhtl1baCjVuyycant92OyjodCDaUrQVl 9r6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=psuq6UNx6tyTTWo8vbd5EQNYJHfXNYDjzgcjCh7/0Xo=; b=iBvAXcJqGii2TydxkXXdmFxzQ6N91Y6WfAqHLsgIWlZSDhooTtrk52MyIB6XWIeXjG VQFXEyIdPPZw8TXExeKA7N0gu3gpQAZsGq+4a9/n3ISp3MnHTwUqa50+zpoD5jUAeXcF +Rtz0hevpzbZCivQ24DOguseUoDtPRlQcHqe4wib2eDn9rxh56F1BVoL5BPt+gSId6Yr AHtg+rPlBsfU0QwPA0+dCj+HAFF0knAf6PCaWlDRmd+bq1gr9x8YA3dqPGZ2EIMGYMZ+ TyEF/mucKa5f/KvAJRlntDpuJj0dI4x/6PO51A1m0DWpmDmW0o4q4nV5KmUc6/cAEUXo /Xiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVnKDiUytWSnY3eMsnxtd17NmivcvunSzAH6hIgbl1lBouQN3YD LrSQ2AuHLD1se3ZgiHkAV8rSlwOAu1wRTWzoJcgR0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+MhrXm6HZ4Oe1AoydBEN8dwQp+3vYfu7KUZ6AEuMnUpDivDBsAUlWx7VXLKA0InYGAG7DJLhzIqNTfSG9u7E0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4b05:b0:8af:38c9:d52d with SMTP id y5-20020a1709064b0500b008af38c9d52dmr1357306eju.2.1676054081045; Fri, 10 Feb 2023 10:34:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e272d72-b77a-d347-b5c3-7ed19482e5af@gmail.com> <3h5FEAegoTs6FrhHODiW-rBdB59dt_Rmr4G0PIw7flqaJLsmorgPsilm4f2aJkDud-qEljDjnCJcE1uY05Iw4HNQcyNG4W3wzVlLD0UZfLg=@protonmail.com> <7wttzu3uvh.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wlel54ynd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:34:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000020151d05f45cc007" Message-ID-Hash: XVXW7IGY2HS3HX3ES56ZGQT34RYG5VHZ X-Message-ID-Hash: XVXW7IGY2HS3HX3ES56ZGQT34RYG5VHZ X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Jonathan Gray , Computer Old Farts Followers X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: project athena (was Re: Setting up an X Development Environment for Mac OS) List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000020151d05f45cc007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 8:33 AM Dan Cross wrote: > On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 10:26 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 3:12 AM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > >> Jonathan Gray wrote: > >> >> Any chance this DOS supdup software is still around? > >> > > >> > https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1985.pdf > >> > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/ > >> > >> Great, thanks! > >> > >> It's a bit sad to read in supdup.mss "Unfortunately, very few machines > >> have TCP/Supdup servers. The only servers known to us are on Mit-MC and > >> Su-AI, and 4.2 Unix machines running a server we distribute." At this > >> point, three old ITS machines had recently fallen over, one after the > >> other, and MC was the only one left standing. But not long after, four > >> new ones would appear. One of which is still up and running! > > > > I wonder if this was the same supdup that the early BSDs used to > distribute their source in the 90s .. > > I believe they are entirely different. > > If I recall correctly (and it's been a while...) csup, CVSup, et al > were based on `sup`, which was a file distribution tool somewhat like > `rdist`, which came from CMU. csup/cvsup was optimized for moving > source code deltas (a la CVS repositories) around. I recall a > graphical client written in Modula-3? > cvsup was written by John Polstra in Modula-3. IT had an optional GUI client. It was notable at the time for using the radical new concept of threading to stream the exchange elements of the protocol, speeding it up radically over the old sup protocol, which was entirely synchronous. In addition, it knew about the structure of RCS files, and exchanged only delta information so could make a number of interesting optimizations in transmission of data and delta data (since RCS had rules for the version number's forms, etc). It was from the very early days of the FreeBSD project (somewhere between FreeBSD 2.0 and 2.1) because the sup protocol was killing the wallnut creek CD-ROM servers with its load (a primary motivation for teaching it about the structure of RCS files). csup was a later rewrite in 'c' as the module-3 compiler fell into disrepair. It was written by Maxime Henrion and is protocol compatible with the cvsup programs. It lacked a gui, but was way more portable and didn't require that a new architecture in FreeBSD first port the Module-3 compiler to it so source updates were possible (only slight exaggeration). cvsup was ported between three or four different Modula-3 compilers as support for the language was fading away.... Both became obsolete when the FreeBSD project moved to svn. It offered not-quite-as-good, but good-enough delta updates, so cvsup and csup became relegated to the dustbin of history. > The SUPDUP protocol used by ITS hosts was a "Display Protocol" based > on TELNET: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc734 > > I think the similarity in naming was just a coincidence. > Now that you say that, I recall that as well... Warner --00000000000020151d05f45cc007 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 8:33 AM Dan C= ross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote= :
On Fri, Feb 10= , 2023 at 10:26 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 3:12 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
>> Jonathan Gray wrote:
>> >> Any chance this DOS supdup software is still around?
>> >
>> > https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/= www/publications/pcip-1985.pdf
>> > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/ >>
>> Great, thanks!
>>
>> It's a bit sad to read in supdup.mss "Unfortunately, very= few machines
>> have TCP/Supdup servers.=C2=A0 The only servers known to us are on= Mit-MC and
>> Su-AI, and 4.2 Unix machines running a server we distribute."= =C2=A0 At this
>> point, three old ITS machines had recently fallen over, one after = the
>> other, and MC was the only one left standing.=C2=A0 But not long a= fter, four
>> new ones would appear.=C2=A0 One of which is still up and running!=
>
> I wonder if this was the same supdup that the early BSDs used to distr= ibute their source in the 90s ..

I believe they are entirely different.

If I recall correctly (and it's been a while...) csup, CVSup, et al
were based on `sup`, which was a file distribution tool somewhat like
`rdist`, which came from CMU. csup/cvsup was optimized for moving
source code deltas (a la CVS repositories) around. I recall a
graphical client written in Modula-3?

c= vsup was written by John Polstra in Modula-3. IT had an optional GUI client= .
It was notable at the time for using the radical new concept of= threading to
stream the exchange elements of the protocol, speed= ing it up radically over
the old sup protocol, which was entirely= synchronous. In addition, it knew
about the structure of RCS fil= es, and exchanged only delta information so
could make a number o= f interesting optimizations in transmission of data
and delta dat= a (since RCS had rules for the version number's forms, etc). It
was from the very early days of the FreeBSD project (somewhere between
FreeBSD 2.0 and 2.1) because the sup protocol was killing the wall= nut creek
CD-ROM servers with its load (a primary motivation for = teaching it about the
structure of RCS files).

=
csup was a later rewrite in 'c' as the module-3 compiler= fell into disrepair. It
was written by Maxime Henrion and is pro= tocol compatible with the cvsup
programs. It lacked a gui, but wa= s way more portable and didn't require that
a new architectur= e in FreeBSD first port the Module-3 compiler to it so source
upd= ates were possible (only slight exaggeration). cvsup was ported between
three or four different Modula-3 compilers as support for the langua= ge was
fading away....

Both became obsol= ete when the FreeBSD project moved to svn. It offered
not-quite-a= s-good, but good-enough delta updates, so cvsup and csup
became r= elegated to the dustbin of history.
=C2=A0
The SUPDUP protocol used by ITS hosts was a "Display Protocol" ba= sed
on TELNET: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc734

I think the similarity in naming was just a coincidence.

Now that you say that, I recall that as well...

Warner
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