From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 15:16:48 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What languges would you like to learn? In-Reply-To: <9DDB7EE9-8E8E-4083-BB36-B15CD784FC3C@pobox.com> References: <9DDB7EE9-8E8E-4083-BB36-B15CD784FC3C@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 2:34 PM David Arnold wrote: > C++ is several different languages in one compiler. > The very definition of train wreck is when too many trains occupy the same bit of track at the same time.... Warner You can use it as a stricter C, as a C with some syntactic support of ADTs, > as C++98-style OO, or as a C++17 style meta-programming system. And I’ve > probably missed a few. > > The resulting complexity requires a lot of discipline to use successfully, > especially in a large team. > > Java competes pretty successfully with the C++98-style OO subset. C11 now > competes with the stricter C subset. > > The C++17 feature set competes with ... LISP, maybe? It’s a pretty clear > winner for some application areas. > > > > d > > > On 27 Dec 2019, at 03:58, Bakul Shah wrote: > > > > You can write “cleaner C++” but you will also need to read, understand > & possibly > > modify other people’s code. But don’t let the naysayers stop you. You > must find > > out for yourself! You must speak the native language of the community > you want > > to be part of. If you deride their local language and proselytize > Esperanto, the > > natives may not take kindly to you! > > > >> On Dec 25, 2019, at 9:43 PM, Wesley Parish > wrote: > >> > >> I will admit the modern version reads a lot more cleanly than the > >> older versions. They finally got rid of the pretense that a C++ header > >> file was the same sort of thing as a C header file. > >> > >> I tried to learn it back in the nineties with one of the Sams Teach > >> Yourself books and Borland's Turbo C++ compiler (before I switched to > >> Linux), but at the end I was still as mystified as before. It took > >> immersion into Java before I finally got the hang of object > >> orientation, and Java's still a lot smaller than C++. > >> > >> A friend wants me to write some utilities for a C++ project he's got, > >> so I figure I may as well help him out. Otherwise I'd be just as happy > >> without C++. I'll try to keep the complexity down to the limit > >> suggested by the Unix philosophy - a piece of code that does only one > >> thing and does it well. :) > >> > >> Wesley Parish > >> > >>> On 12/26/19, Larry McVoy wrote: > >>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 02:44:06PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote: > >>>>>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2019, Wesley Parish wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I'm thinking of finally learning C++. [...] > >>>>> > >>>>> C++? That way lies madness :-) I had to teach myself it once (with > the > >>>>> aid > >>>>> of The Book) and was glad to leave it behind. Oh, it was also the > >>>>> first OO lang that I'd ever used, which probably didn't help. > >>>>> > >>>>> I can still read it, bot no way will I go back to writing in it... > >>> > >>> Amen, brother. Bell Labs did some great things, a lot of great things, > >>> but C++ is not one of them. > >>> > >>> I read the book and wanted to like it, I liked how > constructors/destructors > >>> stacked, that seemed elegant to me. I wanted that for all the methods > and > >>> soon found out only allocation/deallocation stacked. That seemed lame. > >>> > >>> C++ seems to encourage complexity and I hate complexity. I tolerate > >>> it when there is no other way, but as my math kids say, if you have the > >>> right answer, it is beautiful and simple. Complex is reserved for when > >>> you haven't figured it out yet. That's not totally fair, I've written > >>> some complex code but I did have the nagging feeling there must be a > >>> simpler way. > >>> > >>> C++ teams are riddled with rules "don't use this, don't use that". > It's > >>> an interesting language to look at but I'll choose C over C++ every > time. > >>> You can fake OO in C, Sun did it with vnodes and it worked just fine. > I'd > >>> rather fake it and have it be simple than have C++ and have it be > weird. > >>> > >>> That might be me just being an old fart but I have yet to have someone > >>> I admire tell me I need to use C++. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> COFF mailing list > >>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > >>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> COFF mailing list > >> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > > > _______________________________________________ > > COFF mailing list > > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: