From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27065 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2023 01:25:23 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Jun 2023 01:25:23 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE1C40BDF; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 11:25:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F28F40BCF for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 11:25:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2b43a99c887so1176181fa.2 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2023 18:25:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com; s=20221208; t=1686878709; x=1689470709; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=RstaPzEWyUHmKgUYoPsKah4PPTG11ElRLMchVc3v4b4=; b=Ll5xP5/pTBSeOagKD/hmUKmjA/evz1mtUR2tipZFVqa+XvZjEHHgM80ocMGUd0NZIR lNWOJVT75y0MajlecPnWtci8HB/W2vFQbFBcHfY4EdRek7Ue/1rXg+NWRVOFj2LEdMFF z8sdW+VRMsQVLRER4QJ26Ru3z5CsOLnpnlMVrqrX8HiO3nsnE4li4GsWDOHalvcEFWgD UutgEdQ9gfF9567NOQnndD1WZ53nJXaKodQ6fZaFj4/64ODboqUd/2QZWlP8wBzPBrI2 ilrX4XfoewORYuDeDXS2QlBWqX7r1fAx7QQbrKojRkvQfBIBHRmVNpoceuvSZpCjj5M1 3wmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1686878709; x=1689470709; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=RstaPzEWyUHmKgUYoPsKah4PPTG11ElRLMchVc3v4b4=; b=huiXz19i3hG8OJKBN5wRLO0JXx0zX5ABOaH1vvw8dsls3ESiXQIOHxXiDq37F/tTSr H53xLcjFSsDeAdscxuTvPsIEKjxs7E0gV9ZY/+B7B6DzFuI8FVe1NKXA4zdBd75eBRMD IvAD0sxpPXI6FpvQAf8x7fH1GnQFhrAC+4XL78R5649CZ74AyJ8FlWrP85mJ+zyEHV2l hzMg8S6j43ddNAVFnRiROmnYWLxkgtW7pZ3ngrtSCfycq3rgxXCWWOcSVu8+MmunjZCd pArWD9/t5QYg7jvZZlbDXcmRlq8rGvRk1XHzg13RQ9v6LHg1iDv5jBXz1y5dgzxlvpdT oURg== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDzJGRuXzZKQo+DACAVy0dr+nYiUhOBZ8h+F+V4mLtisq/2K9Rd2 q/nldf2RCgWE2kY3hJtm7ZiKC0V4gjgu1CWixL0Vzw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5e+XcHfIPi4j9T4Xs5YdhIfU+EZ0skz4rfXYFUhQ7oUl0U1TGovhhNn+SaHeO1BeIjOs9tG4vTivXhHnKkvnI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8782:0:b0:2a8:d13d:88fb with SMTP id n2-20020a2e8782000000b002a8d13d88fbmr626385lji.11.1686878709247; Thu, 15 Jun 2023 18:25:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 19:24:57 -0600 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003e8b5f05fe350e76" Message-ID-Hash: XTXWZDVTO57KKZFR3VGI6RECVCNVYM37 X-Message-ID-Hash: XTXWZDVTO57KKZFR3VGI6RECVCNVYM37 X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: White Backgrounds on GUIs after Dark Backgrounds on Terminals? List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000003e8b5f05fe350e76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 2:56 PM segaloco via COFF wrote: > Good afternoon everyone. I've been thinking about the color/contrast > landscape of computing today and have a bit of a nebulous quandary that I > wonder if anyone would have some insight on. > > So terminals, they started as typewriters with extra steps, a white piece > of paper on a reel being stamped with dark ink to provide feedback from the > machine. When video terminals hit the market, the display was a black > screen with white, orange, green, or whatever other color of phosphor they > bothered to smear on the surface of the tube. Presumably this display style > was chosen as on a CRT, you're only lighting phosphor where there is > actually an image, unlike the LCD screens of today. So there was a complete > contrast shift from dark letters on white paper to light letters on an > otherwise unlit pane of glass. > Many terminal had a reverse video setting even in advance of the graphical interfaces Step forward to graphical systems and windows on the Alto? Light background > with dark text. > Windows on the Macintosh? Light background with dark text. > Windows on MS Windows? Light backgrounds with dark text. > Default HTML rendering in browsers? Light backgrounds with dark text. > You can add x10/x11 to the early list... as well as decwindows on the VAX station ii era... Fast forward to today, and it seems that dark themes are all the rage, > light characters on an otherwise dark background. This would've made so > much sense during the CRT era as every part of the screen representing a > black pixel is getting no drawing, but when CRTs were king, the predominant > visual style was dark on light, like a piece of paper, rather than light on > dark, like a video terminal. Now in the day and age of LCDs, where every > pixel is on regardless, now we're finally flipping the script and putting > light characters on dark backgrounds, long after any hardware benefit (that > I'm aware of) would be attained by minimizing the amount of "lit surface" > on the screen. > > Anyone know if this has all been coincidental or if the decision for > graphical user interfaces and such to predominantly use white/light colors > for backgrounds was a relatively intentional measure around the industry? > Or is it really just that that's how Xerox's system looked and it was all > domino effect after that? At the end of the day I'm really just finding > myself puzzling why computing jumped into the minimalism seen on terminal > screens, keeping from driving CRTs super hard but then when GUIs first > started appearing, they didn't just organically align with what was the > most efficient for a CRT. I recognize this is based largely in subjective > views of how something should look too, so not really expecting a "Person > XYZ authoritatively decided on that GUI elements shall > overwhelmingly only be dark on light", just some thoughts on how we got > going down this path with color schemes in computing. Thanks all! > Dark on light was to mimic paper. I'm also skeptical that light on dark uses less power or was easier to implement except maybe in the very earliest vector displays... Warner - Matt G. > > --0000000000003e8b5f05fe350e76 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 2:56 PM segaloco via COFF <coff@tuhs.org> wrote:
Good afternoon everyone. I've been thinking a= bout the color/contrast landscape of computing today and have a bit of a ne= bulous quandary that I wonder if anyone would have some insight on.
<= br>
So terminals, they started as typewriters with extra steps, a whi= te piece of paper on a reel being stamped with dark ink to provide feedback= from the machine. When video terminals hit the market, the display was a b= lack screen with white, orange, green, or whatever other color of phosphor = they bothered to smear on the surface of the tube. Presumably this display = style was chosen as on a CRT, you're only lighting phosphor where there= is actually an image, unlike the LCD screens of today. So there was a comp= lete contrast shift from dark letters on white paper to light letters on an= otherwise unlit pane of glass.

Many terminal had a reverse video setting = even in advance of the graphical interfaces

Step forward to graphical systems and windows on the Alto? Light backgr= ound with dark text.
Windows on the Macintosh? Light background with = dark text.
Windows on MS Windows? Light backgrounds with dark text.
Default HTML rendering in browsers? Light backgrounds with dark text.<= /div>

You can add x10/x11 to the early list... as well as decwindows on the VAX = station ii era...

Fast forward to today,= and it seems that dark themes are all the rage, light characters on an oth= erwise dark background. This would've made so much sense during the CRT= era as every part of the screen representing a black pixel is getting no d= rawing, but when CRTs were king, the predominant visual style was dark on l= ight, like a piece of paper, rather than light on dark, like a video termin= al. Now in the day and age of LCDs, where every pixel is on regardless, now= we're finally flipping the script and putting light characters on dark= backgrounds, long after any hardware benefit (that I'm aware of) would= be attained by minimizing the amount of "lit surface" on the scr= een.

Anyone know if this has all been coincidental or = if the decision for graphical user interfaces and such to predominantly use= white/light colors for backgrounds was a relatively intentional measure ar= ound the industry? Or is it really just that that's how Xerox's sys= tem looked and it was all domino effect after that? At the end of the day I= 'm really just finding myself puzzling why computing jumped into the mi= nimalism seen on terminal screens, keeping from driving CRTs super hard but= then when GUIs first started appearing, they didn't just organically a= lign with what was the most efficient for a CRT. I recognize this is based = largely in subjective views of how something should look too, so not really= expecting a "Person XYZ authoritatively decided on <date> that = GUI elements shall overwhelmingly only be dark on light", just some th= oughts on how we got going down this path with color schemes in computing. = Thanks all!

Dark on light was to mimic paper.

<= /div>
I'm also skeptical that light on dark uses less = power or was easier to implement except maybe in the very earliest vector d= isplays...

Warner
<= div dir=3D"auto">
- Matt G.
--0000000000003e8b5f05fe350e76--