From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16036 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2023 18:44:49 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Feb 2023 18:44:49 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C63B41C34; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 04:44:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x631.google.com (mail-ej1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::631]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19E1941C33 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 04:44:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x631.google.com with SMTP id gr7so18296665ejb.5 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2023 10:44:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gLJiVukdv+DgZBPUX84F67qqxbDUwdvWBAeoA9NlgI8=; b=bQrSARVEPD99ldjuiag++Rz56dzCgtf3PlTByvKQs6WOCDvc3CI8yUYgBfTGQGhSQ6 6VoGm3M4fFpwX4m/Nk2iF6X+aQw+p3bafJx6Oa9x5pYmTM08S+GGmZSgbsy+SM+fHllC +pY756d5zqmCK+imnGHYnuk30rfwEFSHEssm0kmVbRfaFOeOCHuXCw+xNNiNgaf4ZfB8 Gv//jXRCiOwnKVVgnU9EYf79U+tLYLxxVWA2kaM9+no1LQHn0pXdlyanDlZzOjG9+QGv g3EnVer/Af9/xes6OJaplJ+PflLTg3Il+7FybnkIqMBKBHSITPNVxqUV9Ry1nwuwvxd/ a40w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=gLJiVukdv+DgZBPUX84F67qqxbDUwdvWBAeoA9NlgI8=; b=nS+ExhE+lppjLz3LZ4hlw5zKzYvlPtUhBzH1bF7jrbk2EYj68YMifdWVDN+HOrZn5f h3DqYuttMlp5RzWMddC47mGVu8dhZC/Q85T7gb+y0byLxJ28Pkj4wPfYI6yvTZIlmsDY 5VfPHcAbg+v1WOktf26qzhHvuN1m6kpYsttWtc64F8/KGY0QWP/dveU33aZ92AhvZcLK DG0pONt3n+Rk5RWtb0xjt1bmcPEp/Zbb7bSVv6juOeUSRyjbIiYP6JQ5r8JAptmyDZWa eyNnHYD7tQDCM+gMuaV8i9SjYUWG/X04Im7T0+BAnV/oKxxtsVAqTFZr7s8YnVYXOvmQ o7HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXUYVuJLDs9cC1S2+Zu/FWovcG7MMmi/thK0/5fK6mbmEHkt5zl bp/8j2daTlE+bT24t2HMfsRrLu4hWRzbC+ByxiIlMN+bQ6epRQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8Kn1CtXEwoNlQRX0C4VWqQL773PHHbQivPnggzYwDKQE0OeSMqShrWg2eNXlxlmfsVQkYa3kQ/fF5vXF/vtPM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:a06e:b0:8ad:cdc3:b2c8 with SMTP id ia14-20020a170907a06e00b008adcdc3b2c8mr1330871ejc.2.1676054680518; Fri, 10 Feb 2023 10:44:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e272d72-b77a-d347-b5c3-7ed19482e5af@gmail.com> <3h5FEAegoTs6FrhHODiW-rBdB59dt_Rmr4G0PIw7flqaJLsmorgPsilm4f2aJkDud-qEljDjnCJcE1uY05Iw4HNQcyNG4W3wzVlLD0UZfLg=@protonmail.com> <7wttzu3uvh.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wlel54ynd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:44:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000db579705f45ce31c" Message-ID-Hash: RF3DXB3FIVEATE6SEHDSOSRFOKNF45UY X-Message-ID-Hash: RF3DXB3FIVEATE6SEHDSOSRFOKNF45UY X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Jonathan Gray , Computer Old Farts Followers X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: project athena (was Re: Setting up an X Development Environment for Mac OS) List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000db579705f45ce31c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 10:20 AM Dan Cross wrote: > On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 10:44 AM Clem Cole wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 10:34 AM Dan Cross wrote: > >> If I recall correctly (and it's been a while...) csup, CVSup, et al > >> were based on `sup`, which was a file distribution tool somewhat like > >> `rdist`, which came from CMU. csup/cvsup was optimized for moving > >> source code deltas (a la CVS repositories) around. I recall a > >> graphical client written in Modula-3? > > > > Right -- ??maybe?? Bob Baron or one of the Mach guys did it - used the > DEC Modula-3 IIRC. > > That sounds right for `sup`. I vaguely remember it being associated > with Coda, as well? I believe the BSDs used it to distribute source > code (in addition to or instead of anoncvs?) in the 90s. > The original sup was on the 4.4BSD tapes, and was written in C' It may have come from Mach. > It looks like CVSup was done by John Polstra in Modula-3. It was being > used for FreeBSD in at least 1996, but I don't know when they started > using it. It's mostly disappeared, but archive.org has a snapshot of > its old web site: > https://web.archive.org/web/20060103034312/http://www.cvsup.org/faq.html > Yes. FreeBSD didn't offer anoncvs because CVS was so terrible at handling the high rate of change for the FreeBSD project. I don't think any of the other BSD projects ever used it officially, but I have a vague memory of there being unofficial NetBSD and OpenBSD mirrors. The latter two projects focused on using anoncvs, to the present day (though both now have git and other mirrors). DragonFlyBSD used it briefly since it started with CVS and then transitioned to git, when it stopped using it entirely. > `csup` was a reimplementation in C (without the GUI part, I imagine) > because the Modula-3 dependency was a pain. > Yes. The compilers were slow to update, the old ones stopped working due to the compilers heavy knowledge of threads, which were undergoing flux in the base FreeBSD system, so updates were always tricky. Plus there were issues with different upstreams accepting FreeBSD patches for various reasons that I have only a vague recollection of. There were two or three compilers, IIRC: The original DEC one, then an egcs based one and then a gcc one when egcs and gcc "reunited"... This was an unbelievable pain, with few people knowing how to properly do a bringup and John retiring or becoming semi-retired in this time period. Warner > >> The SUPDUP protocol used by ITS hosts was a "Display Protocol" based > >> on TELNET: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc734 > > > > Exactly - popular with the LISP hackers. I started to implement it in > the CMU Distributed Front-End years ago but never finished it - I don't > know if it was ever completed. > > Oh yeah, I imagine it was implemented on Lisp machines, probably for > connecting to ITS. Lars, do you know? > > - Dan C. > --000000000000db579705f45ce31c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 10:20 AM Dan = Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrot= e:
On Fri, Feb 1= 0, 2023 at 10:44 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 10:34 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If I recall correctly (and it's been a while...) csup, CVSup, = et al
>> were based on `sup`, which was a file distribution tool somewhat l= ike
>> `rdist`, which came from CMU. csup/cvsup was optimized for moving<= br> >> source code deltas (a la CVS repositories) around. I recall a
>> graphical client written in Modula-3?
>
> Right -- ??maybe?? Bob Baron or one of the Mach guys did it=C2=A0 - us= ed the DEC Modula-3 IIRC.

That sounds right for `sup`. I vaguely remember it being associated
with Coda, as well? I believe the BSDs used it to distribute source
code (in addition to or instead of anoncvs?) in the 90s.

The original sup was on the 4.4BSD tapes, and was written= in C' It may
have come from Mach.
=C2=A0
=
It looks like CVSup was done by John Polstra in Modula-3. It was being
used for FreeBSD in at least 1996, but I don't know when they started using it. It's mostly disappeared, but archive.org has a snapshot of
its old web site:
https://web.archive.org/web/= 20060103034312/http://www.cvsup.org/faq.html

<= /div>
Yes. FreeBSD didn't offer anoncvs because CVS was so terrible= at handling the
high rate of change for the FreeBSD project. I d= on't think any of the other
BSD projects ever used it officia= lly, but I have a vague memory of there being
unofficial NetBSD a= nd OpenBSD mirrors. The latter two projects focused on
using anon= cvs, to the present day (though both now have git and other mirrors).
=
DragonFlyBSD used it briefly since it started with CVS and then transi= tioned to
git, when it stopped using it entirely.
=C2= =A0
`csup` was a reimplementation in C (without the GUI part, I imagine)
because the Modula-3 dependency was a pain.

=
Yes. The compilers were slow to update, the old ones stopped working
due to the compilers heavy knowledge of threads, which were underg= oing
flux in the base FreeBSD system, so updates were always tric= ky. Plus
there were issues with different upstreams accepting Fre= eBSD patches
for various reasons that I have only a vague recolle= ction of. There were two
or three compilers, IIRC: The original D= EC one, then an egcs based one
and then a gcc one when egcs and g= cc "reunited"... This was an unbelievable
pain, with fe= w people knowing how to properly do a bringup and John retiring
o= r becoming semi-retired in this time period.

Warne= r
=C2=A0
>> The SUPDUP protocol used by ITS hosts was a "Display Protocol= " based
>> on TELNET: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc734=
>
> Exactly - popular with the LISP hackers.=C2=A0 I started to implement = it in the CMU Distributed Front-End years ago but never finished it - I don= 't know if it was ever completed.

Oh yeah, I imagine it was implemented on Lisp machines, probably for
connecting to ITS. Lars, do you know?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.
--000000000000db579705f45ce31c--