From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11877 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2022 16:33:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jan 2022 16:33:45 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4EB0D9D47A; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:33:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF679CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:33:14 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="ti0F+dBP"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 28E589C78F; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:32:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f47.google.com (mail-ua1-f47.google.com [209.85.222.47]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E8A09C78F for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:32:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f47.google.com with SMTP id m90so12224018uam.2 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:32:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5prJk4JPGOE7XxIaYjcttxIbGP1VsHgTH/y/FoR8/Sc=; b=ti0F+dBP9n6Xh0K2RFqC8rpDtQ3fRYd8NuD9VPv0GOOjA+yaJhbaPetBYj9+gDlDCH 1Czy7eRBXZqefhxv/4MCzCrUeXdPKPcMGtSF97yf0r1qmwDw+d+XF4dpaFMz+r/7ZtMm yr6VAGxQByJF1yKbmnT89KRTGJt6WyBszQSVLBYkt+Pl/r/ie8bHMcUui8OquteAdp9K flS22qYFWmYBCfQFtfo5rwbTb8UdvWLYEkPXlWhSsrwBcQViZfPrtGovKL5OutmYR2KE neg6f0f39HyfF6YykX1zO3Mvd3QdDmo7qhZCj5r4KH0IjgH6MlEz/tOtSo0NY4NvAPkn rB5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5prJk4JPGOE7XxIaYjcttxIbGP1VsHgTH/y/FoR8/Sc=; b=vRubqrpht5Tp2p5v0nz5yq+G69Okhb9Ao1pGffGlJtBLgxpbetGJgfWw7Q/KXpWPCQ 5AXjt5t5NNm1gn93peQmyMjINVxhtQA+mqSWm+xZJGbaD5aLD77MZNbJVuKD48/XZFoQ tWVasEQYT6x8SUlvzcKrC0vdepax3FHQdPJ+nE2fJhJ8YfLpqWelcY618F/Re6pohWDS hueM3cZiIWRJx9y9vWn4AMF5SiMXh8qY8cj+JJFJJy/OupezfNbKHNXXAGQdXpEU//3/ GsBy9IhyhuqwGP6bEPB6SpIHMOb2CoG5pwMNZhUqN5HU18lVL4Ic+VD5kT0dK/NGUnHR Dhrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532RPNOheakBuVXLRZXflnJ4aJEVC6aEHIGB+RIdwOq1oXqrpYaL 6Efm4H/JCWTUTYEpsGKfju/LZKmNL2nb0IDA7m4/rA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz9t21xByESe0x7GbgaPttCtrKm8hdISlJKPZaQBeWIhUQhUijwLDkLynS8OcdM/tNO2w2lBhfbdNYVYnNs1EQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:d8a:: with SMTP id d10mr2637799vst.42.1642091545643; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:32:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:32:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Subject: Re: [COFF] Scribe (Typesetting System) and Unix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4235727450192088839==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============4235727450192088839== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004473c805d5793b9b" --0000000000004473c805d5793b9b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:20 AM Clem Cole wrote: > To be fair, its not an unusual behavior. Folks coming from VMS (or > windows) try to make Unix look like that. And what did we do with VMS, we > added the cshell and Unix tools so people like me could type on it. I'm > currently being driven nuts by the simh tool which has a very TOPS/VMS > style feel. Everything is help commands. The documents are quite sparse. > To me the documents/book (or man pages) should primarily ' go to' and if > you want something like 'help' then create it from the documents. But I > can not really complain. It's a wonderful tool and its author comes from > that heritage not Unix. The problem I remind him is that he will get silly > questions from people like me, because we can not find things in his help > system - its just not how a Unix program tends to work [I want to look in > the index of the document, and find the section myself]. > The different worldviews are instructive. c-kermit had a tops-20 cmd JSYS built into it and all the escape completion just worked. The help was quite good, but as with most help systems it was a zoomed in on some hyperspecific topic. For that it was usually good (across all the TOPS-20 and VMS and that ilk), but sometimes you got things like "/GERBILS specifies the gerbils to use" without really telling you what a gerbil was in this context. what you didn't get was how things held together (eg /HAMSTERS and /GERBILS worked hand in hand to control parameters to the rodent models used to generate the ecosystem) or some of the higher level concepts (like what an ecosystem was). I used to read the raw VMS help files. They were a verbose version of the Unix manuals in some ways, though less crisp in others. It was helpful to read it all to understand, but even so some important concepts were omitted, or discussed elsewhere w/o a proper cross reference. Warner --0000000000004473c805d5793b9b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:20 AM Clem = Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
<= font color=3D"#0000ff">To be fair, its not an unusual behavior.=C2=A0 Folks= coming from VMS (or windows) try to make Unix look like that.=C2=A0 And wh= at did we do with VMS, we added the cshell and Unix tools so people like me= could type on it. =C2=A0 I'm currently being driven nuts by the simh t= ool which has a very TOPS/VMS style feel.=C2=A0 Everything is help commands= . The documents are quite sparse.=C2=A0 To me the documents/book (or man pa= ges) should primarily ' go to' and if you want something like '= help' then create it from the documents.=C2=A0 But I can not really com= plain. It's a wonderful tool and its author comes from that heritage no= t Unix.=C2=A0 The problem I remind him is that he will get silly questions = from people like me, because we can not find things in his help system - it= s just not how a Unix program tends to work [I want to look in the index of= the document, and find the section myself].

The different worldviews are instructive. c-kerm= it had a tops-20 cmd JSYS=C2=A0built into it and all the escape completion = just worked. The=C2=A0 help was quite good, but as with most help systems i= t was a zoomed in on some hyperspecific topic. For that it was usually good= (across all the TOPS-20 and VMS and that ilk), but sometimes you got thing= s like "/GERBILS specifies the gerbils to use" without really tel= ling you what a gerbil was in this context. what you didn't get was how= things held together (eg /HAMSTERS and /GERBILS worked hand in hand to con= trol parameters to the rodent models used to generate the ecosystem) or som= e of the higher level concepts (like what an ecosystem was).

=
I used to read the raw VMS help files. They were a verbose versi= on of the Unix manuals in some ways, though less crisp in others. It was he= lpful to read it all to understand, but even so some important concepts wer= e omitted, or discussed elsewhere w/o a proper cross reference.
<= br>
Warner
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