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* [COFF] On having a slash
@ 2020-04-13  9:01 dave
  2020-04-13 11:30 ` david
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: dave @ 2020-04-13  9:01 UTC (permalink / raw)


Way back then, when dinosaurs strode the earth and System/360 reigned 
supreme, we were taught to slash our zeros and sevens (can't quite find 
the glyphs for them right now) in order to distinguish them from Oscars 
and Ones for the benefit of the keypunch girls (yes, really; I had the 
hots for one of them at one time, but someone else took her) on those 
green sheets.

In the time-mean I also saw a slash through "Z" (Zulu, Zed, Zee) in order 
to distinguish it from a "2" (FIGURES TWO); WTF?  And you *never* slashed 
your ones, lest thou ended up with the contents of an 029 chad-box over 
thine head...

These days, I merely slash my sevens by habit and it doesn't even raise an 
eyebrow; even Oz Pigeon Post's mail mangler seems to accept it[*].

What're other bods' experiences?

[*]
Don't even mention Redfern, OK?  Just don't...  And as for getting off at 
Redfern, well, I did a few times when I had a contract job around there.

-- Dave, bored at home


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13  9:01 [COFF] On having a slash dave
@ 2020-04-13 11:30 ` david
  2020-04-13 12:38   ` clemc
                     ` (2 more replies)
  2020-04-13 13:21 ` thomas.paulsen
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: david @ 2020-04-13 11:30 UTC (permalink / raw)


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Yes. When I took my first programming class at UCSD they specifically went through the numbers and alphabet showing the mark up and being very careful to go over 0, 1, 7 and O multiple times. I’ve stopped slashing my 0, and I still slash my 7. IDK why I stopped the one and not the other.

A long time ago, in a universe(ity) far far away.

	David

> On Apr 13, 2020, at 2:01 AM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
> Way back then, when dinosaurs strode the earth and System/360 reigned supreme, we were taught to slash our zeros and sevens (can't quite find the glyphs for them right now) in order to distinguish them from Oscars and Ones for the benefit of the keypunch girls (yes, really; I had the hots for one of them at one time, but someone else took her) on those green sheets.
> 
> In the time-mean I also saw a slash through "Z" (Zulu, Zed, Zee) in order to distinguish it from a "2" (FIGURES TWO); WTF?  And you *never* slashed your ones, lest thou ended up with the contents of an 029 chad-box over thine head...
> 
> These days, I merely slash my sevens by habit and it doesn't even raise an eyebrow; even Oz Pigeon Post's mail mangler seems to accept it[*].
> 
> What're other bods' experiences?
> 
> [*]
> Don't even mention Redfern, OK?  Just don't...  And as for getting off at Redfern, well, I did a few times when I had a contract job around there.
> 
> -- Dave, bored at home
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 11:30 ` david
@ 2020-04-13 12:38   ` clemc
  2020-04-13 14:10     ` mike.ab3ap
  2020-04-13 12:53   ` paul
  2020-04-13 15:29   ` krewat
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: clemc @ 2020-04-13 12:38 UTC (permalink / raw)


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FWIW -- I still slash both zeros and sevens.   I was probably 12 when I was
taught that trick, plus the print head of an ASR33 slashed zero's and 1, l,
7 were all distinct. So sat the time, it seemed cool and advanced.  Then it
just became a habit, and as we know, old habits are difficult to change and
frankly, I never saw the reason to stop.  My handwriting is a bit of a mess
as it is, so anything I do the make it clear has always been considered a
good thing by people around me.🤔

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 7:31 AM David Barto <david at kdbarto.org> wrote:

> Yes. When I took my first programming class at UCSD they specifically went
> through the numbers and alphabet showing the mark up and being very careful
> to go over 0, 1, 7 and O multiple times. I’ve stopped slashing my 0, and I
> still slash my 7. IDK why I stopped the one and not the other.
>
> A long time ago, in a universe(ity) far far away.
>
>         David
>
> > On Apr 13, 2020, at 2:01 AM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> >
> > Way back then, when dinosaurs strode the earth and System/360 reigned
> supreme, we were taught to slash our zeros and sevens (can't quite find the
> glyphs for them right now) in order to distinguish them from Oscars and
> Ones for the benefit of the keypunch girls (yes, really; I had the hots for
> one of them at one time, but someone else took her) on those green sheets.
> >
> > In the time-mean I also saw a slash through "Z" (Zulu, Zed, Zee) in
> order to distinguish it from a "2" (FIGURES TWO); WTF?  And you *never*
> slashed your ones, lest thou ended up with the contents of an 029 chad-box
> over thine head...
> >
> > These days, I merely slash my sevens by habit and it doesn't even raise
> an eyebrow; even Oz Pigeon Post's mail mangler seems to accept it[*].
> >
> > What're other bods' experiences?
> >
> > [*]
> > Don't even mention Redfern, OK?  Just don't...  And as for getting off
> at Redfern, well, I did a few times when I had a contract job around there.
> >
> > -- Dave, bored at home
> > _______________________________________________
> > COFF mailing list
> > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 11:30 ` david
  2020-04-13 12:38   ` clemc
@ 2020-04-13 12:53   ` paul
  2020-04-13 14:12     ` imp
  2020-04-13 15:29   ` krewat
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: paul @ 2020-04-13 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw)


My first exposure to computing was 8-bit computers, I was 9 or
10 years old. I typed in countless BASIC programs from magazines
and they used a slashed zero, so naturally I picked it up and
started using it in math class. I explained to the teacher
that it was a "computer thing" and she let me continue doing
it. I eventually stopped slashing my zeros about 10 years later
except when writing programs longhand.

I was taught to write '1' with a serif and '7' with a short
crossbar, and I still do to this day. I also write an open '4'
similar to the one on 7-segment displays, except with the
horizontal stroke extending slightly past the vertical.
When I started teaching math, I got into the habit of
horizontally slashing 'Z' on the blackboard but not on
paper.

Speaking of which, how do y'all represent a space character
in writing? I had a comp. sci teacher who would use a slashed
'b' character, but I never liked that (too big, hard to
distinguish from normal letters). I prefer using something
like character U+2423, a short straight bracket lying on its
back on the baseline.

Tangentially related, I remember when I started learning
about computers that almost everyone used a hyphen between
a modifier and the character: you'd write "Control-C" or
"Shift-6". Then something changed and how it seems more
common to use a '+' character and write it "Control+C".
Wikipedia's article for "Control-C" uses the hyphen in the
title but the plus sign in the article itself. Any idea
why it changed?

P.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13  9:01 [COFF] On having a slash dave
  2020-04-13 11:30 ` david
@ 2020-04-13 13:21 ` thomas.paulsen
  2020-04-13 13:23 ` cym224
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: thomas.paulsen @ 2020-04-13 13:21 UTC (permalink / raw)


'Way back then, when dinosaurs strode the earth and System/360 reigned 
supreme, we were taught to slash our zeros and sevens (can't quite find 
the glyphs for them right now) in order to distinguish them from Oscars 
and Ones for the benefit of the keypunch girls...'

I  slash both zeros and sevens too.  With regards to the zero I learned it at the university in the 70ths, 
however I believe that slashing sevens I learned already in the school days(60ths) or even at home 
by my parents (50ths).




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13  9:01 [COFF] On having a slash dave
  2020-04-13 11:30 ` david
  2020-04-13 13:21 ` thomas.paulsen
@ 2020-04-13 13:23 ` cym224
  2020-04-13 13:36   ` 
  2020-04-13 17:35   ` paul
  2020-04-14  0:12 ` grog
  2020-04-14  2:57 ` paul.allan.palmer
  4 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: cym224 @ 2020-04-13 13:23 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 13/04/2020, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> Way back then, when dinosaurs strode the earth and System/360 reigned
> supreme, we were taught to slash our zeros and sevens (can't quite find
> the glyphs for them right now) in order to distinguish them from Oscars
> and Ones for the benefit of the keypunch girls (yes, really; I had the
> hots for one of them at one time, but someone else took her) on those
> green sheets.
>
> In the time-mean I also saw a slash through "Z" (Zulu, Zed, Zee) in order
> to distinguish it from a "2" (FIGURES TWO); WTF?

I have always seen a slashed 7 and Z in European writing (along with
exaggerated serifs on Wons).

For zeroes and oscars, I dimly recall -- or possibly hallucinate --
that some primeval standard specified putting a tail on oscar and
leaving zero alone.  A bit of searching turned up nothing, though.

N.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 13:23 ` cym224
@ 2020-04-13 13:36   ` 
  2020-04-13 17:35   ` paul
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From:  @ 2020-04-13 13:36 UTC (permalink / raw)


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On 13 Apr 2020 09:23 -0400, from cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo):
> For zeroes and oscars, I dimly recall -- or possibly hallucinate --
> that some primeval standard specified putting a tail on oscar and
> leaving zero alone.  A bit of searching turned up nothing, though.

The original Palm Pilot "Graffiti" alphabet, designed to use
single-stroke for all unaccented characters, had O (oh) and 0 (zero)
both as plain circles drawn counterclockwise starting at the top
(separated into different drawing areas so the OS would know which you
intended), but Q was drawn as an O with a short tail to the right at
the end.

Might that possibly be what you're recalling?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS)

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 12:38   ` clemc
@ 2020-04-13 14:10     ` mike.ab3ap
  2020-04-13 14:21       ` thomas.paulsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: mike.ab3ap @ 2020-04-13 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw)


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Showing the usefulness of that, back around 1985 I was in a training 
session at Unisys and the instructor told us about his time as a 
programmer in Vietnam during wartime.  He was part of a group that 
modified software for artillery fire control systems in the field, and 
each time one of the soldier programmers got orders to return home he 
would leave an easter egg in the code.  A few days later a message might 
pop up saying, "Drinking a beer at home watching tv, wish you were 
here??" or little things along those lines.  The instructor said one 
guy, however, went into the code and globally replaced variable names 
with combinations of 1, l, 0, O.  Since the 1/l and 0/O were displayed 
identically, the programmers didn't find the prank funny.  Our 
instructor said as he traveled the US training groups, he hoped he would 
find the guy.  10 or 15 years later he was still more than a tad angry. 
All for lack of slashes and serifs.

Incidentally, living in Austria I was surprised to see ones commonly 
written looking nearly like upside down Vs.

Mike Markowski

On 4/13/20 8:38 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> FWIW -- I still slash both zeros and sevens.   I was probably 12 when I 
> was taught that trick, plus the print head of an ASR33 slashed zero's 
> and 1, l, 7 were all distinct. So sat the time, it seemed cool and 
> advanced.  Then it just became a habit, and as we know, old habits are 
> difficult to change and frankly, I never saw the reason to stop.  My 
> handwriting is a bit of a mess as it is, so anything I do the make it 
> clear has always been considered a good thing by people around me.🤔
> 
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 7:31 AM David Barto <david at kdbarto.org 
> <mailto:david at kdbarto.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Yes. When I took my first programming class at UCSD they
>     specifically went through the numbers and alphabet showing the mark
>     up and being very careful to go over 0, 1, 7 and O multiple times.
>     I’ve stopped slashing my 0, and I still slash my 7. IDK why I
>     stopped the one and not the other.
> 
>     A long time ago, in a universe(ity) far far away.
> 
>              David


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 12:53   ` paul
@ 2020-04-13 14:12     ` imp
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: imp @ 2020-04-13 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 6:53 AM Paul Guertin <paul at guertin.net> wrote:

> Tangentially related, I remember when I started learning
> about computers that almost everyone used a hyphen between
> a modifier and the character: you'd write "Control-C" or
> "Shift-6". Then something changed and how it seems more
> common to use a '+' character and write it "Control+C".
> Wikipedia's article for "Control-C" uses the hyphen in the
> title but the plus sign in the article itself. Any idea
> why it changed?
>

Because it was always wrong by a strict interpretation of the hyphenation
rules of English. In English, one can say "I have anal-retentive
tendencies" (with a hyphen) but also "I am anal retentive" (without). Both
of these phrases are correct because when two or more words are used to
modify a noun that follows, they are hyphenated, otherwise they are not. So
phrases like "the control-c character" or "the control-v sequence" are
correct, but it should be "hit control c to abort" (without a hyphen) by
this rule. However, that's not the full story. When you are telling a user
to hit "control c" in a technical manual, when you hyphenate it carries a
connotation to many readers (mostly non-technical ones) to press the
control key, release it and then do the same with 'c', which as we all know
won't work. "Conrol+c" however connotes to many doing both at the same
time, so that convention was adopted to avoid the confusion about what '-'
means and dodge the rather tricky hyphenation rules (which I've stated only
in brief, btw). So this convention shifted as computers became more
mainstream.

Warner

P.S. Yes, I know that firetruck used to be fire-truck and it was always
hyphenated for a time, even when not used in a phrase like 'fire-truck
company'. That's one of the exceptions, and Control-C also fell under that
convention. But technical writers started to evolve it to '+' in maybe the
90s to help convey the notion of both at the same time.... and
coincidentally to avoid silly arguments about convention vs "the rules"
that made things more confusing, not less.

P.P.S. I don't have a good source to this other than second-hand
recollection of my wife who used to do technical writing in the 90s, and
half-remembered usenet flame wars. The English rule, though, can be found
in any style manual, and is direct from a former English professor (also my
wife).
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 14:10     ` mike.ab3ap
@ 2020-04-13 14:21       ` thomas.paulsen
  2020-04-13 14:23         ` imp
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: thomas.paulsen @ 2020-04-13 14:21 UTC (permalink / raw)


'Since the 1/l and 0/O were displayed 
identically, the programmers didn't find the prank funny.  Our 
instructor said as he traveled the US training groups, he hoped he would
find the guy.  10 or 15 years later he was still more than a tad angry. 
All for lack of slashes and serifs.'

the 1/l/i confusion was a real problem in those days when I saw numberless frustrated programmers whose programs did anything but the expected.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 14:21       ` thomas.paulsen
@ 2020-04-13 14:23         ` imp
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: imp @ 2020-04-13 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 8:22 AM Thomas Paulsen <thomas.paulsen at firemail.de>
wrote:

> 'Since the 1/l and 0/O were displayed
> identically, the programmers didn't find the prank funny.  Our
> instructor said as he traveled the US training groups, he hoped he would
> find the guy.  10 or 15 years later he was still more than a tad angry.
> All for lack of slashes and serifs.'
>
> the 1/l/i confusion was a real problem in those days when I saw numberless
> frustrated programmers whose programs did anything but the expected.
>

There's many obfuscation tools for 'C' that existed back in the day which
did the above automatically. I've had the displeasure to debug code run
through that for which the original source has been lost...  "Pleasure" ...
right. I'll go with that since this is still polite company.

Warner
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* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 11:30 ` david
  2020-04-13 12:38   ` clemc
  2020-04-13 12:53   ` paul
@ 2020-04-13 15:29   ` krewat
  2020-04-13 15:40     ` pdagog
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: krewat @ 2020-04-13 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw)


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I slash my 0's, but that's it, having always had TECO on a PDP-10 with 
an LA36 to start with.

I remember a lot of my math teachers that had ZERO experience with a 
computer marking up things as you describe. Z, 7, 0 (zero), etc. Maybe 
mathematical formulas were the origin?

ak

On 4/13/2020 7:30 AM, David Barto wrote:
> Yes. When I took my first programming class at UCSD they specifically went through the numbers and alphabet showing the mark up and being very careful to go over 0, 1, 7 and O multiple times. I’ve stopped slashing my 0, and I still slash my 7. IDK why I stopped the one and not the other.
>
> A long time ago, in a universe(ity) far far away.
>
> 	David
>
>> On Apr 13, 2020, at 2:01 AM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>>
>> Way back then, when dinosaurs strode the earth and System/360 reigned supreme, we were taught to slash our zeros and sevens (can't quite find the glyphs for them right now) in order to distinguish them from Oscars and Ones for the benefit of the keypunch girls (yes, really; I had the hots for one of them at one time, but someone else took her) on those green sheets.
>>
>> In the time-mean I also saw a slash through "Z" (Zulu, Zed, Zee) in order to distinguish it from a "2" (FIGURES TWO); WTF?  And you *never* slashed your ones, lest thou ended up with the contents of an 029 chad-box over thine head...
>>
>> These days, I merely slash my sevens by habit and it doesn't even raise an eyebrow; even Oz Pigeon Post's mail mangler seems to accept it[*].
>>
>> What're other bods' experiences?
>>
>> [*]
>> Don't even mention Redfern, OK?  Just don't...  And as for getting off at Redfern, well, I did a few times when I had a contract job around there.
>>
>> -- Dave, bored at home
>> _______________________________________________
>> COFF mailing list
>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 15:29   ` krewat
@ 2020-04-13 15:40     ` pdagog
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: pdagog @ 2020-04-13 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw)


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On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 11:29:07AM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>I slash my 0's, but that's it, having always had TECO on a PDP-10 
>with an LA36 to start with.
>
>I remember a lot of my math teachers that had ZERO experience with a 
>computer marking up things as you describe. Z, 7, 0 (zero), etc. 
>Maybe mathematical formulas were the origin?
>

When I was a student, I once cheated during an exam (I know, I'm 
ashamed) by giving the answer to my neighbor and friend: I gave 
him the good answer, which was a "0" (zero). My friend got a bad 
grade, since he read "ø", the symbol for "empty set".

Pierre


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 13:23 ` cym224
  2020-04-13 13:36   ` 
@ 2020-04-13 17:35   ` paul
  2020-04-13 22:09     ` dave
  2020-04-13 22:12     ` krewat
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: paul @ 2020-04-13 17:35 UTC (permalink / raw)


Dixit Nemo (2020-04-13 9:23 a.m.):
>   European writing (along with exaggerated serifs on Wons).

I would love to see a study correlating the serif length on 1
with both the age of the writer and the place he or she learned
to write. Most Europeans write ones with serifs, but while some
of them write normal serifs, others go full CVS receipt and
end up with serifs longer than the character they're seriffing.

P.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 17:35   ` paul
@ 2020-04-13 22:09     ` dave
  2020-04-14 13:34       ` dfawcus+lists-coff
  2020-04-13 22:12     ` krewat
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: dave @ 2020-04-13 22:09 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, Paul Guertin wrote:

> I would love to see a study correlating the serif length on 1 with both 
> the age of the writer and the place he or she learned to write. Most 
> Europeans write ones with serifs, but while some of them write normal 
> serifs, others go full CVS receipt and end up with serifs longer than 
> the character they're seriffing.

I (English-born, Aussie-bred) use s short serif and underline on the "1". 
Hmmm...  My MacBook puts a dot in the middle of the "0" (zero) and 
serifs/underlines the "1" too.

I make spaces visible with a sort of a musical "flat" symbol but with a 
short bar through it, write a tab as a short right arrow, and for me it's 
always ^C etc (which is how they're echoed).

Part of my background is formal message-passing in emergency 
communications, whereby the written message *must* be correct as that will 
what will be sent (even spelling and grammatical errors, which used to 
irritate me although I am allowed to query the author).

Ahhh...  The Tower of Babel when it comes to something that must by 
definition be precise :-)

-- Dave (VK2KFU)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 17:35   ` paul
  2020-04-13 22:09     ` dave
@ 2020-04-13 22:12     ` krewat
  2020-04-13 23:21       ` dave
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: krewat @ 2020-04-13 22:12 UTC (permalink / raw)


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Since it's COFF, I replaced to the list.

On 4/13/2020 1:35 PM, Paul Guertin wrote:
> Dixit Nemo (2020-04-13 9:23 a.m.):
>>   European writing (along with exaggerated serifs on Wons).
>
> I would love to see a study correlating the serif length on 1
> with both the age of the writer and the place he or she learned
> to write. Most Europeans write ones with serifs, but while some
> of them write normal serifs, others go full CVS receipt and
> end up with serifs longer than the character they're seriffing.

20 years from now, no one will get the CVS reference without searching 
for it :)

ak


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 22:12     ` krewat
@ 2020-04-13 23:21       ` dave
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: dave @ 2020-04-13 23:21 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, Arthur Krewat wrote:

> 20 years from now, no one will get the CVS reference without searching 
> for it :)

And here I was wondering what "Concurrent Versions System" had to do with 
it...

The kindest thing that I could say about SCCS was that it solved the 
problem at the time, and I was glad when RCS came along; I don't like GIT.

-- Dave, with a strong interest in BitKeeper


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13  9:01 [COFF] On having a slash dave
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-04-13 13:23 ` cym224
@ 2020-04-14  0:12 ` grog
  2020-04-14  2:57 ` paul.allan.palmer
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: grog @ 2020-04-14  0:12 UTC (permalink / raw)


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2010 bytes --]

On Monday, 13 April 2020 at 19:01:13 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> In the time-mean I also saw a slash through "Z" (Zulu, Zed, Zee) in order
> to distinguish it from a "2" (FIGURES TWO); WTF?  And you *never* slashed
> your ones, lest thou ended up with the contents of an 029 chad-box over
> thine head...
>
> These days, I merely slash my sevens by habit and it doesn't even raise an
> eyebrow; even Oz Pigeon Post's mail mangler seems to accept it[*].
>
> What're other bods' experiences?

It's funny that nobody seems to have differentiated these usages.
I've seen at least three:

1.  "European" characters: 1 with a serif (is that really the correct
    term?), 7 with a stroke, Z also with a stroke.  Also small u with
    a stroke above it in German, left over from the days
    („Sütterlinschrift“) when this was the only distinction between
    written u and n.  None of these had anything to do with computers.

2.  The distinction between O and 0.  Put a cross through the 0 and
    leave the O as it was.  In my experience, this too predated
    computers: I first learnt it round 1963 when trying to become a
    radio amateur, much to the disgust of my maths teacher, who also
    didn't like the hooked 1s and the crossed 7s.

3.  The distinction between O and 0.  The same as before, almost: put
    a cross through the O and leave the 0 normal.  This must be a US
    usage, since O and Ø are both valid (and different) letters in
    some Nordic languages.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13  9:01 [COFF] On having a slash dave
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-04-14  0:12 ` grog
@ 2020-04-14  2:57 ` paul.allan.palmer
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: paul.allan.palmer @ 2020-04-14  2:57 UTC (permalink / raw)


Did anyone ever find a font with these characters? Preferably one I can use
with TeX.

Thanks

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 4:01 AM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org wrote:

> Way back then, when dinosaurs strode the earth and System/360 reigned
> supreme, we were taught to slash our zeros and sevens (can't quite find
> the glyphs for them right now) in order to distinguish them from Oscars
> and Ones for the benefit of the keypunch girls (yes, really; I had the
> hots for one of them at one time, but someone else took her) on those
> green sheets.
>
> In the time-mean I also saw a slash through "Z" (Zulu, Zed, Zee) in order
> to distinguish it from a "2" (FIGURES TWO); WTF?  And you *never* slashed
> your ones, lest thou ended up with the contents of an 029 chad-box over
> thine head...
>
> These days, I merely slash my sevens by habit and it doesn't even raise an
> eyebrow; even Oz Pigeon Post's mail mangler seems to accept it[*].
>
> What're other bods' experiences?
>
> [*]
> Don't even mention Redfern, OK?  Just don't...  And as for getting off at
> Redfern, well, I did a few times when I had a contract job around there.
>
> -- Dave, bored at home
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-13 22:09     ` dave
@ 2020-04-14 13:34       ` dfawcus+lists-coff
  2020-04-14 14:23         ` gdmr
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: dfawcus+lists-coff @ 2020-04-14 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 08:09:21AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, Paul Guertin wrote:
> 
> > I would love to see a study correlating the serif length on 1 with both
> > the age of the writer and the place he or she learned to write. Most
> > Europeans write ones with serifs, but while some of them write normal
> > serifs, others go full CVS receipt and end up with serifs longer than
> > the character they're seriffing.

I (raised in England), in my early 50s:
  draw a 1 as simply a vertical stroke, no serifs
  draw a 7 without any bar, but did see that being used by some while in middle school
  draw an 4 'open', rather than 'closed'
  draw 0 variably depending upon context

A 0 usually without slash, occasionaly with a slash when writing code
or it would otherwise be ambiguous (licence codes, etc).

We tended to view the stroked 7 as a Continental practice, but some people adopted it.

As to your question about spaces, I do it as Paul described - a short of shallow bucket.

> I (English-born, Aussie-bred) use s short serif and underline on the "1".

Aha - so you were pulling our legs with your phrasing of the subject.

DF


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
  2020-04-14 13:34       ` dfawcus+lists-coff
@ 2020-04-14 14:23         ` gdmr
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: gdmr @ 2020-04-14 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw)


> > the age of the writer and the place he or she learned to write. Most
> > Europeans write ones with serifs, but while some of them write normal
> > serifs, others go full CVS receipt and end up with serifs longer than
> > the character they're seriffing.
> 
> I (raised in England), in my early 50s:
>   draw a 1 as simply a vertical stroke, no serifs
>   draw a 7 without any bar, but did see that being used by some while in
> middle school

I (a Scot) draw a 1 with a serif and a 7 with a bar (and a Z with a bar)
because it was necessary for university maths not to mix up |, 1, 7, 2 and
Z, and the habit has just stuck.  Mathematicians, of course, have lots of 
other ways to decorate their fonts.

And I write zero with a slash and O without when clarity requires it (e.g. 
copying down serial numbers) and sometimes at other "computing" times too, 
though not consistently, because it helped the card-punch-operator.

I did have a summer job as a student at a place which did the 0 and O 
the other way round, which caused a bit of confusion at first.  I don't 
know why, because it wasn't the kind of place which would have been 
contrary about something like that.  Given that I got the job because the 
person I was working for didn't understand IMPLICIT INTEGER and couldn't 
see why his FORTRAN wasn't giving him the results he expected, my guess is 
that it was just a case of someone hearing about a good idea and just 
implementing it in their own way.
-- 
George D M Ross MSc PhD CEng MBCS CITP
University of Edinburgh, School of Informatics,
Appleton Tower, 11 Crichton Street, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH8 9LE
Mail: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk   Voice: 0131 650 5147 
PGP: 1024D/AD758CC5  B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A  426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* [COFF] On having a slash
@ 2020-04-13 15:14 rudi.j.blom
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: rudi.j.blom @ 2020-04-13 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw)


Remember I learned slashing my zeroes, small bar in sevens and zets,
curly letter X.
This was when a studied Mathematics fro a while at the University of
Technology in Delft, the Netherlands.. I think it had to do with
avoiding misunderstandings in scribbled formulars in a time we still
did a lot of real writing semester papers. This was around mid-70tish
for me.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-04-14 14:23 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-04-13  9:01 [COFF] On having a slash dave
2020-04-13 11:30 ` david
2020-04-13 12:38   ` clemc
2020-04-13 14:10     ` mike.ab3ap
2020-04-13 14:21       ` thomas.paulsen
2020-04-13 14:23         ` imp
2020-04-13 12:53   ` paul
2020-04-13 14:12     ` imp
2020-04-13 15:29   ` krewat
2020-04-13 15:40     ` pdagog
2020-04-13 13:21 ` thomas.paulsen
2020-04-13 13:23 ` cym224
2020-04-13 13:36   ` 
2020-04-13 17:35   ` paul
2020-04-13 22:09     ` dave
2020-04-14 13:34       ` dfawcus+lists-coff
2020-04-14 14:23         ` gdmr
2020-04-13 22:12     ` krewat
2020-04-13 23:21       ` dave
2020-04-14  0:12 ` grog
2020-04-14  2:57 ` paul.allan.palmer
2020-04-13 15:14 rudi.j.blom

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