From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 10876 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2022 16:25:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jan 2022 16:25:17 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8E8089CFF4; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:25:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083529CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:25:11 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="Gs3fWcOz"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5A7279CF7E; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:25:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f47.google.com (mail-ua1-f47.google.com [209.85.222.47]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E9219C78F for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:25:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f47.google.com with SMTP id l15so12043218uai.11 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:25:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RYmxwkU/6WgOjbxlQ/GjjKqfxlWMfIFeACKKb2O95mA=; b=Gs3fWcOzAKS0bBBLUfWDUa+rE6b9NfxIrGsDzkBoZiZNjnaKNhe9HvtzjwQHen4Sb0 Jlxo9hyh+9XZHYP0RNAeKTbkqx3p3SddLIghQ3mpNKOICFouVFviRJWzL9zcyH2TNWqS jS3MCwvg8DxT/CG70g++ndqFJjgnfyaH3aW6hj1sp6n/jINB26hw9VJnmnQqwR7/z5uF L14hAqReCJlm2FeYiYwbL/fSWdiJB0nxE2oYkViyiuL9g840WPmFRxu8Urq1s+pKo5r+ D8RoDWGCYF0py9qABwQbOGBSLX1mw12dkayIncph9d5XWZa/HED4UTZHVmUjltaX9b9m OsUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RYmxwkU/6WgOjbxlQ/GjjKqfxlWMfIFeACKKb2O95mA=; b=JAo5yaw/coccYHlM8nC68vr5ehCOKbTAOG/dSM6Tvj3LAEFlmHJoUKIu7YG3U40YbM bkvuoQroL3iugiHKn0FJrQc21uwA0+SXfOm1hzoQGLqNFIy7J0HElCxc7QVZAhxOJGvJ S6ZZ8FD/CFewcvhxsu/0qpEjNmxu5H2hAOYUKXYNiydDoXOXaTj86CnQdnSeg4JsaxAL 5wpNKO0UzYyrEJZblpHKmFxIcUE7R5/JIto7Xk36Rn0vA6Qm6g15xso6Bbm+Dlndyoqw 0b43WQrA2NBttLrx50DOiAXdIVTJ+2PjmnqujOi14DRQGh7TTgZAncSkqZB7MmDkVee6 qArg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5305/F7mJDqs+7GoE5H97SzIXbsIcVOqQKgAwijwBMds1O76cKxh hCyxaNicEBQoSE/pnimEM8tS6PTCrSxlCrTlYhaCLw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzU02k4Z/iGn8ixXokZpY0kbB0AnUSX4EQP+fhPDkQBoEp8zjPvI5hMM3d6PzNfh5AzsGio2AuinozS2e51lHs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:d8a:: with SMTP id d10mr2618153vst.42.1642091107237; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:25:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:24:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Subject: Re: [COFF] Scribe (Typesetting System) and Unix X-BeenThere: coff@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6646109043344943652==" Errors-To: coff-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "COFF" --===============6646109043344943652== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000023098505d5792134" --00000000000023098505d5792134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:06 AM Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:08 AM John P. Linderman > wrote: > >> Many of us who wrote articles for the Bell System Technical Journal would >> disagree. The BSTJ publishers could transform something that made sense >> when viewed as troff output into unintelligible gibberish. You cannot split >> a UNIX command line into multiple lines just because it "looks better". >> Sometimes format really matters. >> > I think that is true for any scheme -- professionals and editors need to > work together. That's what Jon was suggesting. When they don't have > shared vocabulary/goals - bad things can happen. FWIW: I can not speak > for him directly as I never had this conversation with him (Win might > have), but from what I knew/know of Brian Ried I think he might agree with > what I'm suggesting. IMO, *there will always be cases like the one that > you described*. This is not particular to any document compiler system. > The question is how to bring the two sides together and who has the high > order bit? > > My complaint with Word and the like, is that the 'control' is hidden. > It's $%^& magic -- why is it indenting here? Hey I did not tell it to make > it go italics ... > Yea. There's a balance here: the number of people that tweak things because they can is quite large. and often the tweaks need to be undone because they look like @#^@^ to the professional typesetter (I guess they'd call this the publisher these days). There also needs to be some way to flag the legit "your defaults got this so wrong my readers will trip over this" bits. That's lacking in Word, for example. I've seen other systems cope with this to varying degrees of success. I've used LaTeX for all my professional papers. With the proper style guides, I can easily transport the words from one style requirement to another. However, I run into issues all the time when I go from conference A that has a single column to conference B that has the dual columns of IEEE. Where diagrams fit and are pleasing to the eye in one, they look awkward and out of place in the other. Etc. So this ideal one can approach, but there will always be bits of bricabrack that can't be easily handled by the automation. While most of the issues can be delegated to the macros, some manual tweaking is necessary because there are many works that are more than just a big bag of words with semantic metadata attached. I never got into troff. It always seemed lower level than LaTeX to me when I was learning things, and I didn't want to be bothered with those details. I can read and use it today, but it's not my primary choice unless I'm tweaking a work already in troff. Warner --00000000000023098505d5792134 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:06 AM Clem = Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
<= /div>


On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:08 AM John P. Linderm= an <jpl.jpl@gmail= .com> wrote:
Many of us who= wrote articles for the Bell System Technical Journal would disagree. The B= STJ =C2=A0pu= blishers could transform something that made sense when viewed as troff out= put into unintelligible gibberish. You cannot split a UNIX command line int= o multiple lines just because it "looks better". Sometimes format= really matters.
I think that is true for any scheme= -- professionals and editors need to work together.=C2=A0 That's what = Jon was suggesting.=C2=A0 When they don't have shared vocabulary/goals = - =C2=A0bad things can happen. =C2=A0 FWIW: I can not speak for him directl= y as I never had this conversation with him (Win might have), but from what= I knew/know of Brian Ried I think he might agree with what I'm suggest= ing.=C2=A0 IMO, there will always be cases like the one that you=C2= =A0described.=C2=A0 This is not particular to any document compiler= system. =C2=A0 The question is how to bring the two sides together and who= has the high order bit? =C2=A0=C2=A0

My complaint with Word and the like, is that the 'control= 9; is hidden.=C2=A0 It's $%^& magic -- why is it indenting here?=C2= =A0 Hey I did not tell it to make it go italics ...

Yea. There's a balance here: the number of p= eople that tweak things because they can is quite large. and often the twea= ks need to be undone because they look like=C2=A0@#^@^ to the professional = typesetter (I guess they'd call this the publisher these days). There a= lso needs to be some way to flag the legit "your defaults got this so = wrong my readers will trip over this" bits. That's lacking in Word= , for example. I've seen other systems cope with this to varying degree= s of success.

I've used LaTeX for all my profe= ssional=C2=A0papers. With the proper style guides, I can easily transport t= he words from one style requirement to another. However, I run into issues = all the time when I go from conference A that has a single column to confer= ence B that has the dual columns of IEEE. Where diagrams fit and are pleasi= ng to the eye in one, they look awkward and out of place in the other. Etc.= So this ideal one can approach, but there will always be bits of bricabrac= k that can't be easily handled by the automation. While most of the iss= ues can be delegated to the macros, some manual tweaking is necessary becau= se there are many works that are more than just a big bag of words with sem= antic metadata attached.

I never got into troff. I= t always seemed lower level than LaTeX to me when I was learning things, an= d I didn't want to be bothered with those details. I can read and use i= t today, but it's not my primary choice unless I'm tweaking a work = already in troff.

Warner
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