From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5091 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2023 16:02:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jan 2023 16:02:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8041642561; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 02:01:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-f43.google.com (mail-ej1-f43.google.com [209.85.218.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6211A42469 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 02:01:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-f43.google.com with SMTP id x22so83624350ejs.11 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 08:01:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=W1awmlRQKX+m/qNCEmcedYFlAWth3DoInwvt8FnWVl0=; b=ts7wo6fVJ3BeGaPZrv6D0uNnFDE5AG/GQCjFtxtZAYStUJ6aZrC+Ke2Nk8zFDj8/Rr 3quXlJrF7H85W/7FAMqhL72f7Zyso3qTRiqfL9xcow02AvTOGB2h45OV6H04c8NWVKnr wO8FRsuvqIv/Chmr5/UZLRKip45/xnJUpIDHxTqWVNQasxXpBasPtihHJy2Z18OVRpFm wxkn5aaM8pLkyRzGSKXIux6BSWVWiryGyKwQmPcAtHZ/tGilNC8ZKXRNR9dPEP2u3720 vE4bCyLPb0LyLruu8JehYNlGVq/neAv/dWLhZlKFvVdM9d4JNiR41rMbLWLyx5cUvBmy wh3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=W1awmlRQKX+m/qNCEmcedYFlAWth3DoInwvt8FnWVl0=; b=3JY9LpYrwHuoXUMuDeqNsiX0cjzvtJS09j0OjOdPuV4aPMS0pYX1ix0L7Fp1eV9EF/ q+X/c50FzAb1B7xvdNxgIDlLolfCjfnuzjp4kW0EXX9+DKp1pSSQqiP9yhlpgaHQc4xB 4q8c6c1D0TzXxKIW5YrGxciiIbOuAEaOP6GR465OL0l6YQveXJKvPF4CowIhXKlgB1TU tcMfbl2mhkAzXZEBOsLBcv5pp222D4kKBizDjurMqUT+tCiazxvwSJsPK8SjmXWcm9YU /wFDYKb+TFjNNRxv4zOJKV1tmys+O1cgpKdtAQi1GS3wn0nFMNYRCa2c+00IIY3njg/I YwEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kp0eJeB2gKEINAstJ66xBHtS0GEkCsedD9DGWpMSD+c6US8SyxA epu3oUtka+Im+nlsNeVEXgjJr95V256EDHpE8Milknpa3IY+RA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXvxVmB+Y/BIewYAYYbEyCeuaIl6S4ZuHrjnOJ+YjS3i4inMvaaJgL70alIgCqPzO4D9CHrjLOvj3I9y+zeBMLU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:bb87:b0:845:bb21:f62b with SMTP id xo7-20020a170907bb8700b00845bb21f62bmr2572946ejc.140.1672848028636; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 08:00:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230102203646.GT25547@mcvoy.com> <7AC50DD1-DAB2-443A-B275-E3FB08031167@gmail.com> <20230103025836.GZ25547@mcvoy.com> <20230104030610.GB25689@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 09:00:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000082af9105f1724872" Message-ID-Hash: EAUSOECLVB4LJDXV5K5FWU57SZP2P5C4 X-Message-ID-Hash: EAUSOECLVB4LJDXV5K5FWU57SZP2P5C4 X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Interview question List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000082af9105f1724872 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 8:44 AM Dan Cross wrote: > > Bill Moore's question was "If we need you to, will you sweep the floors?" > > This better be well contextualized. Does this mean, "we're a small > organization and everyone needs to be willing to pitch in as needed?" > or does it mean, "are you willing to prostrate yourself before the > altar of this organization in order to prove yourself?" If the former, > sure. If the latter, then no: sorry, I've done my time in more ways > than one, including literally sweeping and mopping the floors (and > cleaning the head) in the Marines. There's a tendency in technology to > basically haze the friendly new guy; I'm done with that. > The best programmers I've ever worked with understood teamwork and the team produced something way better than what any one of us could do (this was back in the days before egoless programming, CI, code reviews, etc), so we invented the bits that worked for us on the fly). The thing is, every single person on that team could (and often did) work on any aspect of the product, be it the documentation (though the tech writers usually did that), the code (the programmers usually did that, but the tech writers committed fixes to the example code that was in the book), to the printer being out of toner / paper, the soda supply in closet running out, the snacks that we got at costco running low, stuffing product into boxes to ship to customers, handling customer calls, dealing with talking to customers at a technical conference in a sales booth, presenting papers at conferences, etc. Nobody did anything entirely by themselves. We interviewed several 'lone wolves' that had done it all, but found the one we hired couldn't integrate into our pack because they couldn't be part of a team and put the team first and the group needs ahead of their own. That's the Genesis of my mistrust of this question, or at least the premise behind it. And Dan, these 'scut tasks' weren't about hazing, but just about doing what needed to be done... Warner --00000000000082af9105f1724872 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 8:44 AM Dan Cr= oss <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:=
> Bill Moore= 's question was "If we need you to, will you sweep the floors?&quo= t;

This better be well contextualized. Does this mean, "we're a small=
organization and everyone needs to be willing to pitch in as needed?"<= br> or does it mean, "are you willing to prostrate yourself before the
altar of this organization in order to prove yourself?" If the former,=
sure. If the latter, then no: sorry, I've done my time in more ways
than one, including literally sweeping and mopping the floors (and
cleaning the head) in the Marines. There's a tendency in technology to<= br> basically haze the friendly new guy; I'm done with that.


The best programmers I've ever wor= ked with understood teamwork and the team produced something way better tha= n what any one of us could do (this was back in the days before egoless pro= gramming, CI, code reviews, etc), so we invented the bits that worked for u= s on the fly). The thing is, every single person on that team could (and of= ten did) work on any aspect of the product, be it the documentation (though= the tech writers usually did that), the code (the programmers usually did = that, but the tech writers committed fixes to the example code that was in = the book), to the printer being out of toner / paper, the soda supply in cl= oset running out, the snacks that we got at costco running low, stuffing pr= oduct into boxes to ship to customers, handling customer calls, dealing wit= h talking to customers at a technical conference in a sales booth, presenti= ng papers at conferences, etc. Nobody did anything entirely by themselves. = We interviewed several 'lone wolves' that had done it all, but foun= d the one we hired couldn't integrate into our pack because they couldn= 't be part of a team and put the team first and the group needs ahead o= f their own. That's the Genesis of my mistrust of this question, or at = least the premise behind it. And Dan, these 'scut tasks' weren'= t about hazing, but just about doing what needed to be done...
Warner
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